TunerAddict
Starter
David Lee....on Maccabi Tel Aviv...They're good.....In Israel.....
Fire D'Antoni!
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
David Lee....on Maccabi Tel Aviv...They're good.....In Israel.....
nyk_nyk
All Star
Hey RED,
You hit the nail on the head over and over with your post. It seems that we have the same type of views on success for winning basketball. SSOL is definitely flawed on so many levels. With SSOL, you can entertain and win games if you have accurate shooters and well conditioned players. On the other hand, it is very prone to inconsistency since most of the shots are low percentage.
Anyone who really understands basketball knows that you win by being a smart offensive team and even better on the defensive end. If your in a close game, the point is to limit your opponents possesions while your team takes high percentage shots and use clock management. There are so many times when I'm watching the Knicks and they make a good stop but then come down and take a horrible shot thus giving the posession back to the opponent almost immediately without anything to show for the defensive effort.
I've said this in an earlier post but the SSOL is not a good fit for these group of players and Dantoni gets an "F" for not realizing that. I wonder what he's going to do when Curry somes back because his fat ass is DEFINITELY not equipped for this offense.
You hit the nail on the head over and over with your post. It seems that we have the same type of views on success for winning basketball. SSOL is definitely flawed on so many levels. With SSOL, you can entertain and win games if you have accurate shooters and well conditioned players. On the other hand, it is very prone to inconsistency since most of the shots are low percentage.
Anyone who really understands basketball knows that you win by being a smart offensive team and even better on the defensive end. If your in a close game, the point is to limit your opponents possesions while your team takes high percentage shots and use clock management. There are so many times when I'm watching the Knicks and they make a good stop but then come down and take a horrible shot thus giving the posession back to the opponent almost immediately without anything to show for the defensive effort.
I've said this in an earlier post but the SSOL is not a good fit for these group of players and Dantoni gets an "F" for not realizing that. I wonder what he's going to do when Curry somes back because his fat ass is DEFINITELY not equipped for this offense.
nyk_nyk
All Star
Lee could be a starter on a bunch of good teams. Why? Because he produces consistently.
A lot of people having making assumptions with no facts. This quote is one of them. I am not just calling out nyk_nyk, I just chose this part of his post because it was one of the latest.
D'antoni do not realize he does not have players good enough for his system? What facts do you have to back this up? You think it is possible that maybe he does realize this; however, he just uses the players he has? It isn't as easy to be able to pick and choose who you want for your system. It isn't as easy as changing the system that you coach because you do not have the players for it.
There was a point in time when Phil Jackson did not have the players he needed for his triangle system, and they weren't winning championships. He didn't change his system. He waited until he got those players.
I am not defending D'antoni. I am not very happy with the Knicks. I am not a fan of the seven seconds. However, I do understand that our players are NOT GOOD. The only two players on our team that are consistent: David Lee, not even an all-star, and Eddy Curry.
What coach can seriously take these guys and turn them into a winning team? We have one guy that we can count on to do something every night, everyone else is a roll of the dice.
KING~POETIQ
The One and Only
LMFAO :teeth: :teeth: :teeth: :teeth: where's OGKnickfan so he can call this guy out for manipulation of words...
That second quote of mine was from another thread asking for OUR own opinion on who we would choose to keep beyond 2010. In NO WAY did I discredit our players from being talented. You on the other hand, seem to bash the Knicks roster every time you post.
Of course every player on our team has talent, even that fat fukk curry has talent. Why do you think they're in the NBA?
How the fukk would you know if the style can win? it has NEVER won a championship(which is what only matters). We saw this with nelson's Golden state team of the early 90's, nelson's dallas mavericks of the early 2000's and we also saw it in d'antoni's suns. It can't fukkin win!! The style can't fukkin win!! Get it through your head.
Its disgraceful how you talk shit about the players that make up our NY Knicks, yet back up a fukkin coach that hasn't really proved much in his time here. SMH
KING~POETIQ
The One and Only
Word...
people don't get that without total discipline there is no way we are winning a title. I have already made those comparisons to other "run-and-gun" teams.
If we keep d'antoni, the Knicks will be the A-ROD(prior to this magnificent season) of the NBA. Great regular season, Shitty post season.
LJ4ptplay
Starter
To manipulate something means to change something for ones own benefit. Please tell me where I changed what you said. I directly quoted you about who we should keep. In that statement you said Lee is a bench player on a good team and Harrington is a 3rd or 4th option on a good team and expendable. Since those guys are our best players it seems contradictory to say we have a talented team.
That's a relative statement. Yes, Curry has talent compared to the average human being walking around but this whole team does not have talent relative to the other professional basketball teams in the NBA. Hence why we suck.
This is just silly logic. I guess then Van Gundy is a terrible coach because he never won a championship. Ewing is a terrible center because he never won a championship.
If it's your personal opinion that this system can't win a championship, then fine. I disagree. I admit though, I was against the D'Antoni hiring at first because I believe a defensive style of play is better. But to say it can NEVER win a championship is just foolish.
I think with the right players and an all star go-to-guy, this system can win a championship. At least I'm giving the guy a chance. You want to fire him 4 games into a rebuilding year.
Ummm. D'Antoni has been with the Knicks longer than almost the whole team. Why should these players receive special treatment? They haven't proven anything either.
OK then, let's fire D'Antoni and keep our players. What next then? We win 30 games like every year and then fire that coach.
What pisses me off the most is that this seems eerily reminiscent of the Larry Brown days. Why didn't Larry Brown win with the Knicks? Because he played a defensive style and we didn't have defensive players (or much talent for that matter). But he won 23 games and everybody called for him to be fired.
If you disagree with the system, then that's fine. But if you think D'Antoni should be fired because you think this collection of players can win, then you have your head up your ass.
Everybody that didn't have their head up their ass knew this team was one of the worst teams in the league, regardless of the coach and to fire him because we're losing seems reactionary and irresponsible.
Red
TYPE-A
Exactly...
To add...
The undisciplined approach is comical when you break it down!
The system allows a "Freestyle" approach by the players and for the most part thats o.k. but...
It means the players aren't doing things that have been proven fundamentally and traditionally
such as taking shots when your teammates are under the basket- if you keep 4 on the perimeter (and shoot) then you decrease your odds of rebounding- thats fundamentals!
Players should be an extension of a coach, his system etc... Good coaches use hours prepping while players train, practice and condition to administer the system.
This system (mentioned above) and game plan is implemented after a Good Coach analyzes and preps for opponents based on exploiting weakness and promoting his strengths.
This is what a coach does, and players are his/her extension!
Why do we have a coach when the system is to be freestyled by the players?
Why are we constantly doing the same thing as if there was no specific game plan for certain opponents?
It seems by "simplifying" the system you would get into a groove quicker and just play free (without thinking) but...
As you can tell, that hardly ever works and we are constantly coming back and that can partially work for guys who are extremely savvy and talented but also is (as I've stated) fundamentally flawed.
The philosophy of: Good players can make plays with little to know implementation of an actual plan
hoisting up low percentage shots
not playing effective defense or having no specified plan
not being able to adapt and exploit what little strengths we have
playing free and undisciplined without having to "Think" and adhere to a coach whom players should be an extension
when concerning D'Antoni is...
FLAWED!
Not to mention...
We have youngsters who need coaching and direction not veterans (except Harry, Hughes)
You lower moral when players cannot fall back on a consistent and solid game plan
you Still haven't decided on a rotation is ridiculous!!
What kind of coach, whos team is down, watches his players chuck huge amounts of ugly low percentage shots- AND SUPPORTS THAT!!! He doesn't go off and call a time-out and bench a player... HE SUPPORTS IT!!!
This type of approach has been proven to be fundamentally flawed and can only be successful when a great deal of mitigating factors and luck come into play.
We as a "rebuilding" team don't need this undisciplined approach so, ITS NOT SO MUCH FIRE HIM NOW (which might actually make things worse) as much as it is I DONT SUPPORT THIS and I don't want this guy back when his contract is up. Especially when we hit this long waited July FAgency.
Play like this, superstar or not, is not good for us. Expecting us to acquire a player for each position that can play this freestyled, undisciplined, fundamentally flawed and frankly embarrassing brand of garbage means things look worse added we actually will have some cap space to do so.
If Donnie gets a player(s) that FIT into D'Antoni's system he will ultimately sabotage our long term efforts!!
Ask yourself this:
Do these players really suck so much, or Are The Decisions They Make Based On This Flawed System Just Bad? Would Doc Rivers or Phil Jackson stand for their players chucking up low percentage shots and getting blown out every game?
Discipline, consistency, planning and execution is the name of the game. You question talent during draft time. We have some talent, we lack someone who is good at maximizing it. Dont forget D'Antoni ALREADY HAS "THE BEST SHOOTER EVER ON HIS TEAM" lol...SMH!:machinegun::whack::whack::whack::whack::whack::whack::whack::whack::whack::whack:
Red
TYPE-A
Read it again motherf*ckers!!!
Ask yourself:
What's more important to success:
A power forward who has three point range -or-
A power forward who bangs down low, blocks shots?
Dirk (hypothetically) might be able to pull his guy out to the three point line but, if he can't bang in the paint and block shots or play defense in the post
his three point skill is Secondary to what a team Fundamentally needs from a PF.
Having guys who are bad at fundamentals but have extraordinary skill at something not so important is a waste.
Sure you use his skills in your game plan but, if said player cant achieve the fundamental minimums he is wasting our time for instance:
Lee- rebounds, passes
cant play D, cant bang down low
N8- can score, drive
cant play D, too small, doesnt facilitate the offense, bad decisions
Hughes- plays D, doesn't bitch and moan
cant consistently hit outside shots
You see these players have talent just not what is needed Fundamentally from their respective positions which leads to:
Players getting exploited because the Genius Coach keeps playing them out of position.
Do we want this when we get a star? A coach who is clueless one utlizing his assets. see: Marbury
If we needed certain players what happened to: Marbury, Craword and Z-Bo (i didn't want them for $ reasons) but it seems they fit better than Duhon and the rest of the chuck bunch don't you think?
Ask yourself:
What's more important to success:
A power forward who has three point range -or-
A power forward who bangs down low, blocks shots?
Dirk (hypothetically) might be able to pull his guy out to the three point line but, if he can't bang in the paint and block shots or play defense in the post
his three point skill is Secondary to what a team Fundamentally needs from a PF.
Having guys who are bad at fundamentals but have extraordinary skill at something not so important is a waste.
Sure you use his skills in your game plan but, if said player cant achieve the fundamental minimums he is wasting our time for instance:
Lee- rebounds, passes
cant play D, cant bang down low
N8- can score, drive
cant play D, too small, doesnt facilitate the offense, bad decisions
Hughes- plays D, doesn't bitch and moan
cant consistently hit outside shots
You see these players have talent just not what is needed Fundamentally from their respective positions which leads to:
Players getting exploited because the Genius Coach keeps playing them out of position.
Do we want this when we get a star? A coach who is clueless one utlizing his assets. see: Marbury
If we needed certain players what happened to: Marbury, Craword and Z-Bo (i didn't want them for $ reasons) but it seems they fit better than Duhon and the rest of the chuck bunch don't you think?
LJ4ptplay
Starter
If you think the SSOL system is just about hoisting up shots and not playing defense, then you don't know how the SSOL system should be run. In fact, I haven't seen these players actually run the SSOL system very much at all. While the system allows more freedom (e.g. if you are open, take the shot) much of it is based on pick and rolls and penetating and passing to the open man. The system isn't just about putting a bunch of shooters out there. It's important in order to spread the defense and allow penetration for lay-ups or dishing out but it's not the only aspect of the system.
What bothers me the most, is this all seems like you all are overreacting to the losses. If we were 4-2 right now would you be calling for D'Antoni to be fired? Conversely, I would still be calling for all of our players to be gone because I know we have a shitty team.
Much like when we traded Crawford and Z-Bo when we were 6-5. Everyone was cheering Donnie for doing this but when the losses started accumulating everybody started calling for Donnie to be fired for trading away our 2 best scorers. SMH.
And to say, we must have a shot-blocking/banging PF to win, just look at Orlando. They win with Rashard Lewis as their PF. And in no way did I see them lose to the Lakers in the finals because of that. In many ways they could have and should have beaten the Lakers. They just choked at the end of a lot of games. Orlando has a great shot-blocking/rebounding/banging Center and I think getting that type of player that can run in D'Antoni's system would work well (Sean Williams??). EDIT: And I would argue that Mike Brown lost to Orlando because he didn't go small and play Lebron at the PF.
Phil Jackson plays the Triangle system. He's only won when he's had the best player in the league. Even when he had the best player and not the right pieces for the Triangle around him, he still played the Triangle. He didn't change his system. He waited to get they players that fit his system. And ask yourself this, would Phil Jackson win more games than D'Antoni with this group of losers? No, he would probably win less. And in many ways Phil Jackson is less of a disciplinarian than D'Antoni.
While I agree with you that defense is important, I believe Donnie knows this and has expressed this to D'Antoni. D'Antoni knows this too, which is why he stressed defense so much in training camp. Unfortunately we don't have any players that know how to play with intensity throughout a game. That's why we have a crappy team. Good players know they need to play hard throughout the game and we don't have good players. They give up too easily. Ever notice how well this team plays when they're actually playing with intensity?
D'Antoni is already a proven winner and with the right pieces he can win a championship. And the pieces will not be all no-defense shooters.
I believe a good PG (Hinrich?), a SG that can actually hit open shots and play decent defense (like Raja Bell but not him because he's too old), Gallo at the SF, a PF that can spread the defense (Lebron?) and an intimidating C that can also run the floor (Sean Williams?) can run the SSOL system very well and compete for a championship.
What bothers me the most, is this all seems like you all are overreacting to the losses. If we were 4-2 right now would you be calling for D'Antoni to be fired? Conversely, I would still be calling for all of our players to be gone because I know we have a shitty team.
Much like when we traded Crawford and Z-Bo when we were 6-5. Everyone was cheering Donnie for doing this but when the losses started accumulating everybody started calling for Donnie to be fired for trading away our 2 best scorers. SMH.
And to say, we must have a shot-blocking/banging PF to win, just look at Orlando. They win with Rashard Lewis as their PF. And in no way did I see them lose to the Lakers in the finals because of that. In many ways they could have and should have beaten the Lakers. They just choked at the end of a lot of games. Orlando has a great shot-blocking/rebounding/banging Center and I think getting that type of player that can run in D'Antoni's system would work well (Sean Williams??). EDIT: And I would argue that Mike Brown lost to Orlando because he didn't go small and play Lebron at the PF.
Phil Jackson plays the Triangle system. He's only won when he's had the best player in the league. Even when he had the best player and not the right pieces for the Triangle around him, he still played the Triangle. He didn't change his system. He waited to get they players that fit his system. And ask yourself this, would Phil Jackson win more games than D'Antoni with this group of losers? No, he would probably win less. And in many ways Phil Jackson is less of a disciplinarian than D'Antoni.
While I agree with you that defense is important, I believe Donnie knows this and has expressed this to D'Antoni. D'Antoni knows this too, which is why he stressed defense so much in training camp. Unfortunately we don't have any players that know how to play with intensity throughout a game. That's why we have a crappy team. Good players know they need to play hard throughout the game and we don't have good players. They give up too easily. Ever notice how well this team plays when they're actually playing with intensity?
D'Antoni is already a proven winner and with the right pieces he can win a championship. And the pieces will not be all no-defense shooters.
I believe a good PG (Hinrich?), a SG that can actually hit open shots and play decent defense (like Raja Bell but not him because he's too old), Gallo at the SF, a PF that can spread the defense (Lebron?) and an intimidating C that can also run the floor (Sean Williams?) can run the SSOL system very well and compete for a championship.
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Javier-knicks
Rookie
Go Knicks
hello, I'm a big fan of the Knicks and New York, I live in a small town in Spain but I follow the Knicks every day and this summer I was in new york, in my high school people who likes basketball is unfortunately little like cleveland, lakers etc ... the usual, but I support the knicks forever, I think it takes patience, certainly go back .............. ........ go knicks
hello, I'm a big fan of the Knicks and New York, I live in a small town in Spain but I follow the Knicks every day and this summer I was in new york, in my high school people who likes basketball is unfortunately little like cleveland, lakers etc ... the usual, but I support the knicks forever, I think it takes patience, certainly go back .............. ........ go knicks
Red
TYPE-A
Herein lies the debate. Is it the...
Coach or the Players????
I would guess you would say...
D'Antoni has a proven record, these players don't. When we get better players, we'll get better results. Does that about sum it up?
Btw, Phil>D'Antoni
LJ4ptplay
Starter
Just about.
Although I place most of the blame on the players, I don't think D'Antoni is not deserving of some criticism.
I can't argue with the statement that Phil Jackson is a better coach than D'Antoni. The records speak for themselves. But I don't think Phil could win any more games than D'Antoni with these players. 30-35 wins is the max for this collection of talent.
Red - Props for this great post. D'ants deserves a lot of the blame for the Knicks poor start, a coach's job is to adjust the style of play and the game plan to his players. Adelman in Houston has done a great job in reworking that team's offense from a half court one with Yao to a motion offense
emphasizing ball movement and playing D. Can't say the same for D'ants, he's
so far stayed with the SSOL despite having a team that is 27th in the league in fg% and 25th in 3pt %. Why stay with an offensive philosophy when your players don't seem suited for it.
mafra
Legend
Coach D is in a tough spot. He has to play Jeffries and Duhon b/c (I'm sure) Walsh wants to trade these two. It's a catch-22 though, you have to play them to "showcase" them but the more we see them play the more they are exposed. Still, with an injury here or there to some contender, DW hopes someone comes calling.
SO, we must deal with it.
KING~POETIQ
The One and Only
First of all, the word "manipulate" does not mean "to change something for ones own benefit." It means to skillfully handle, control, or move something. So you basically did a shitty job at manipulating :lol:
And I'm still telling you, I NEVER said we had a talentless team, contrary to what you believe. I was saying our players would have different roles on superior teams.
Also, if we sucked the way you proclaim, wouldn't we lose every single game we play? Think about it. In the second paragraph of your quote you said "this whole team does not have talent relative to the other professional basketball teams in the NBA", so you're basically saying we're not on any NBA team's level, which is ridiculously absurd.
Bringing both Van gundy and Ewing into the discussion is foolish. Shows that you could not find a counter argument to my examples of teams that failed with similar SSOL styles. I know, you were dumbfounded so you made up bullshit.
Hey, its not really my opinion that d'antoni's SSOL style of play can never win a championship, its the cold hard facts. I presented the facts but you stubbornly disregard them because they kill your argument.
The major problem I see with posters like yourself is that they shit on the team and pardon the coach. Many times I've heard you say to blow up the team like its all the teams fault. Which is a major reason I stepped into the argument. Especially as I now see that d'antoni is more to blame than the whole team is.
''manipulate
2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage.
3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose.''
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manipulate
I guess both of you are right.
That s the art of manipulation......Looool
If there is shiit to be spread around that should go to players and coach as well.
They make us mad night in night out.
I guess both of you are right to some degree. It's all about who is the better ........manipulator. Loooooooool:teeth:
KING~POETIQ
The One and Only
Yo, I've been in battle mode all week, so of course I'ma respond...
I see you questioning my post but you ain't clear on it. Please, elaborate...