PF/C Comparative: FA Class vs Lee

David Lee:



2009-10 Statistics
PPG - 20.2
RPG - 11.70
APG - 3.6
BPG - 0.5
SPG - 1.0
FG% - .545
FT% - .812
EFF - +26.99

Born: Apr 29, 1983
Height: 6-9 / 2.06
Weight: 250 lbs. / 113.4 kg.
College: Florida
Years Pro: 4

Upsides:

-Great rebounder
-Creative/effective post scorer
-Developed good mid range game adding versatility
-Passing. Another addition to his offensive versatility
-Ball handling. Added a reliable spin move that, again, added to offensive versatility.
-Ambidexterity - exemplary ability to finish and create with both hands.
-Runs the floor well.
-Excellent P&R player
-Quick jumper
-Great attitude. Excellent work ethic. Coaches dream etc.
-Good IQ

-Showed his ability to be a 20 + 10 + 5 player with last season's ginormous 37,20 and 10 triple double. Statistically one of the best games in years. Had a number of games within 1 or 2 assists of similar monster games with triple doubles.


Down sides:

Defence:
-Lateral movement
-Willingness
-Positioning
-Timing
-Struggling on switches
-Lack of physicality
-Puppy dog intimidation level

Basically, it's all about defence. Offensively, he's a top 10, maybe even top 7/8 big man. He has had to play against a lot of bigger opponents away from his natural position, but he didn't complain, he just did it......albeit abysmally.

Predicted salary: $12.5Mish per season




Obviously I can comment more on Lee in this comparative having watched him a lot more than his counter parts but here goes.

Chris Bosh:



2009-10 Statistics
PPG 24.0
RPG 10.80
APG 2.4
BPG 1.0
SPG 0.6
FG% .518
FT% .797
3PFG% .364

EFF+ 26.67
Born: Mar 24, 1984
Height: 6-10 / 2.08
Weight: 230 lbs. / 104.3 kg.
College: Georgia Tech
Years Pro: 6

Upsides:

-Very creative offensive player.
-Excellent triple threat
-3 point range
-Runs the floor exceptionally well
-Very athletic
-Passes well out of double teams
-Go to player in clutch
-Decent ambidexterity
-Good IQ
-Versatility - plays 5-4-3 effortlessly (on offense)

Downsides:

-Desire
-Leadership
-Softness
-Heart
-Numerous DNPs from niggling injuries.
-Fortitude - Bosh is very lithe which raises questions about his durability
-Effectiveness against stronger opponents
-Wobbly knees
-Hair
-Ultimately, this guy was the best player on a stacked team. After 2 seasons of disappointment, questions must be raised as to his desire to win. Failing is hard to take, but when it's in the Eastern conference, you have to ask why teams like Milwaukee are so much better.

Predicted salary: $15.8-16.5M





Carlos Boozer



Born: Nov 20, 1981
Height: 6-9 / 2.06
Weight: 266 lbs. / 120.7 kg.
College: Duke
Years Pro: 7
2009-2010 R/S Statistics

PPG 19.5
RPG 11.2
APG 3.2
BPG 0.46
SPG 1.08
FG% .562
FT% .742

2010 Playoffs Statistics
PPG 21.6
RPG13.00
APG 3.4
EFF+ 27.38

Upsides:

-Good rebounder
-One of the leagues strongest players - effective under basket
-Deceptively athletic
-Effective hook shot and mid range game
-Good hands
-Runs well
-Versatile offensively

Downsides:

Defence:
-Lateral movement
-Willingness
-Positioning
-Timing
-Struggling on switches
-Questionable all round defensive IQ

Loyalty:

Booz has made it clear that he chases contracts harder than wins. Contrary to that is his post season play. The stats go up, the intensity rises. Still can't get it done as a team leader though.

Created tension in Utah with premature free agency talks. Jumped ship on Cleveland and became P.E #1.

Expected salary: $14-15M





Amar'e Stoudemire



2009-2010 R/S Stats
PPG 23.1
RPG 8.9
APG 1.0
BPG 1.0
SPG 0.63
FG% .557
FT% .771

2010 Playoffs Statistics
PPG 21.1
RPG 7.10
APG 1.3
EFF +19.75
Born: Nov 16, 1982
Height: 6-10 / 2.08
Weight: 249 lbs. / 112.9 kg.
High School: Cypress Creek (FL)
Years Pro: 7

Upsides:

Great blend of strength, quickness, athleticism
Can out muscle any player with sheer momentum
Runs exceptionally well for a big
Good hands
Great first step
Excellent on P&R (with leagues best passer)
Good mid range game

Downsides:

Horrible passing, lack of desire to give up the ball.
Lost some explosiveness
Multiple injuries, re-cos (big concern)
Uninspired rebounder
Defensively lacking
Reported locker room hinderance
Overly self appreciative.

Sweet post. Lee > All. Except maybe Bosh. Even there i think their ultimate value and risk/reward is a virtual wash.

Lee @ PF? Can you imagine the rapes he will be administering around the league while instantly giving more power to his very modest -- but improving -- D.

An interesting crossroads. But given the $ we'll invariably save, i go for lee 100%

Being cheaper than bosh & co. makes it clearcut to me. Lee is a perfect piece on a championship team with a numbr1 -- or even numbr2! -- where he can augment them while doing his thing.

Let's get Emeka and resign Lee mr. Walsh

Even if we become stacked and his pts drop...all the better as itl be directly correlated to him aiding others and likely making his efficiency even higher.

Lee may not hog up offensive stat sheet if surrounded by more talent but perhaps all the better....id take lee as our 15-10-5 PF with increased blks and efficiency playing 2nd fiddle while augmenting the big guns any day of the week over the impact and adaptability that a bosh, let alone amare, would have.

iSaYughh said:

Sweet post. Lee > All. Except maybe Bosh. Even there i think their ultimate value and risk/reward is a virtual wash.

Lee @ PF? Can you imagine the rapes he will be administering around the league while instantly giving more power to his very modest -- but improving -- D.

An interesting crossroads. But given the $ we'll invariably save, i go for lee 100%

Being cheaper than bosh & co. makes it clearcut to me. Lee is a perfect piece on a championship team with a numbr1 -- or even numbr2! -- where he can augment them while doing his thing.

Let's get Emeka and resign Lee mr. Walsh

Even if we become stacked and his pts drop...all the better as itl be directly correlated to him aiding others and likely making his efficiency even higher.

Lee may not hog up offensive stat sheet if surrounded by more talent but perhaps all the better....id take lee as our 15-10-5 PF with increased blks and efficiency playing 2nd fiddle while augmenting the big guns any day of the week over the impact and adaptability that a bosh, let alone amare, would have.

Click to expand...

Cosign.

Only thing I can add to this is Lee actually has a much better record in making plays for others, hell he even brought the ball up the court for us on multiple occasions this season.

If Lee's points dropped to 15ppg alongside a solid #1 he could even break 4 assists per game which is just awesome for a PF.

Co sign to both posts.

It'd be a crying shame if Lee bailed. He wants to be here.

I thought he was as good as gone at the end of the season.

A playmaking PF is worth his weight in gold. Look at Gasol. Lee's dedication throughout the contract mayhem of the previous post season and afterward deserves reward as much as his ever improving game does. Add the defence and it's a repeat ASG nod.

Cosign all of these

Pretty much the only thing we can complain about David Lee is his defense. You know the sad reality? None of the players on that list is much better than David Lee on defense. Chris Bosh is soft (David Lee isn't a hard nosed player, but at least he hustles). Amare doesn't try on defense (which is especially tragic considering his physique which you'd think would make him a good defender). Boozer doesn't really bring much of an offensive upgrade to David Lee, and his defense isn't much better either.

At this point if we can get Lee to stay for 10 million or even 12 million we DO IT

Great Thread!

The question is a little Black and White (no pun intended)

It comes down to who else we sign, and then you can say which is the better deal

w/ Camby gone, obtaining the shotblocking rebounding big man that is needed to play w/ Lee is no longer an option.

so do you really eat up 12 million of the cap to not end up with a better frontcourt than we have had the past two seasons

Now, I like the idea of both Lee and Bosh (although I just for some reason can't shake the idea it coud end up Curry/Randolph 2). That improves our front court dramtically and would give us the money to make other moves to upgrade the squad.

To me Boozer and Amare are more expensive versions of Lee, neither are that much better than Lee defensively, so paying them the extra dough would be a waste! IMO

Bosh is the most complete of the frontcourt players talked about here so in theory he is the "best buy", but is he an injury away from being Jermaine Oneil in a couple of years?

I would say Bosh is the best because if anyone is going to draw Lebron from Clev out of these guys it would be him!

Im not going to consider Boozer, I don't like him and he's the older one.
Lee is a team player much more than the other. If he's playing well all the team game improves.
Give the ball to Bosh or Amare and it never come back. They're too "himself" players.

Let's take the $ out of the equation for a second.

Defence:-Lateral movement-Willingness-Positioning-Timing-Struggling on switches-Lack of physicality-Puppy dog intimidation level

Click to expand...

This will NEVER change. To think so, it would only be FAIR to ASSUME Bosh's, Stats, & Boozer's defense will improve ALSO.

I would also ASSUME no team would take LEE over any of those players (unless there was no choice) b/c they had a chance to sign him last season and passed.

I could name about five more PF's that aren't FA's that I would rather than Lee. As I stated, Lee is a good player. A Good compliment.

But I have seen what he's got from every stand point, on and off the court, offense and defense.

When I have to say... Oh Lee will be better w/ another player -or- when I notice we could be JUST AS GOOD (or bad) WITH or without Lee...

I conclude: 1. EVERY player WOULD be better w/ another player doing what they don't.
2. He has no real impact with his skill sets that aren't replaceable
3. He's had years to make a difference and didn't

that means he's expendable. Someone else deserves a shot now...sorry.

Definitely rather have Lee at the cheaper price. Lets also remember what a great passer he is. This can not be understated especially if we acquire an all star wing for him to pass to...think Lebron cutting to the basket at full speed. I am one of those who believes Lee benefits from more talent on our team and we will see his numbers rise. Right now he is a pseudo first option but his game would benefit from feeding off a true star who can command a double team. This will free Lee up to work around the rim, grabbing offensive rebounds and put backs while being able to roll to the basket to receive a pass from a double teamed star. That is the environment Lee will thrive in. Imagine him in the PnR with a competent PG and a wing who the defense can't leave open.

BTW, another important and often overlooked stat is his FG%. Thee guy is simply an efficient scorer and can do so with either hand.

Red said:

Let's take the $ out of the equation for a second.

This will NEVER change. To think so, it would only be FAIR to ASSUME Bosh's, Stats, & Boozer's defense will improve ALSO.

I would also ASSUME no team would take LEE over any of those players (unless there was no choice) b/c they had a chance to sign him last season and passed.

I could name about five more PF's that aren't FA's that I would rather than Lee. As I stated, Lee is a good player. A Good compliment.

But I have seen what he's got from every stand point, on and off the court, offense and defense.

When I have to say... Oh Lee will be better w/ another player -or- when I notice we could be JUST AS GOOD (or bad) WITH or without Lee...

I conclude: 1. EVERY player WOULD be better w/ another player doing what they don't.
2. He has no real impact with his skill sets that aren't replaceable
3. He's had years to make a difference and didn't

that means he's expendable. Someone else deserves a shot now...sorry.

Click to expand...

Why do you hate white people? Joking...:teeth:

On a serious note, had we assessed Lee before last year one would have concluded that he was a scrappy player who could not hit a jump shot. Well, in his 5th year Lee decided to acquire a mid range jump shot to expand his game and make him a more versatile scorer. This shows that Lee is willing to put in the work and is capable of self correction. I disagree that we have seen all that Lee has to offer. The guy is consistently getting better and will thrive alongside a true #1 option. Further he has been playing out of position and most certainly will benefit by moving to PF.

Its Obvious

Everyone knows that David Lee is the best choice for the knicks at PF. They can get him for 10.5 to 11.5 million which is the cheapest out there for an effective PF. But the question is what will donnie do? Will Mr.Walsh start creating a core team before july 1st and leave room for a Max free agent like Wade or LeBron, and then try and go after them? Or at 11:59 on June 31st just be sitting in a room with Mike D'Antoni with there hands on the phone like

Walsh: "On your mark.......get set......Go!"

Walsh picks up the phone

Walsh: "Hey Phil its Donnie Walsh here with the knicker...

D'Antoni(on the phone with LeBron): "Hey is that Phil Jackson!"


(you hear LeBron say "If Phil is going to be there Im on my way!" I aint goin if i have do that D"antoni run and shoot bullshit.)

Walsh: Hey? Did Steve Nash Just walk by in the hall way?

D'Antoni: STEVE! WAIT!

(D'Antoni runs out of room)



anyways I got caught up with this D'antoni Joke but the question is if Donnie will try to create a specific team, or just randomly call every free agent.... oh one last joke!


Mike and Donnie are lauhing on july 1st

Mike: This is gonna be Hillarious!

Mike picks up the phone and dials a number

Mike: Hey Nate, its Mike, hows it going?

Donnie is snickering in the background

Nate Robinson: Mike? Mike D'Antoni? Why the hell are you calling me so late?

Mike: Well we wanted to know if you wanted to be on the 2010-2011 knicks?

Nate Robinson: Really???? Yah mean it???

Mike: NO!

Mike hangs up and Donnie and Mike crack up laughing

Well.. I can't say "we have a mediocre team" and NOT include Lee.

At best... he's the best of the worst we have. But again, his skills didn't translate to wins or a minimal improvement offensively or defensively.

And, when considering he did play against C's who neglected to really guard his jumper at 15 - 18ft, and his put backs, yes his offensive skill and stats (plus D'Antoni) would be better than the past.

I guess I'm influenced by the Playoffs. When we get there it will be a new ball game. Our 1st and 2nd options might ne reduced leaving Lee in the spot light.

Once that happens... and playoff caliber PF's get at him the likes of KG or Josh Smith... I think he won't be enough as compared to more formidable two way players. With his current skills he's accumulated his best personal stats of his career. While the NYK's have stayed dormant.

He's not an impact type, and I don't want more expensive compliments so... his position must be upgraded or a servicable cheaper option must be found IMO.

Great Thread. I think we are all forgetting that David Lee was an all-star selection this season while playing out of position and he was named by the coaches which says something IMO. Like a lot of us have been saying, we really need a defensive center who is not a liability on the offensive end to pair with Lee to maximize his efficiency. I don't see how an all-star (Lee), a budding star (Gallinari), and a (hopefully young) shot blocker would not be an attractive core to a guy like Lebron, especially if he considers that we will have 12 million more coming off after this next season or to use at the trade deadline (Curry), plus Wilson and TDoug. I think Lee has a unique skill set, ala Pau as someone mentioned earlier, and considering his price tag could be more valuable than any of the other pf's available.

learn how to spell defense

NewYork 21 Knicks said:

learn how to spell defense

Click to expand...

what amazing insight and opinion, you truly opened my eyes with this one. :finger:

post something worth reading

To those saying Lee is mediocre, or really, "expendable" due to his game not translating into us "winning". Two things:

Imagine how much more we suck if Lee is replaced by a pretty good, let alone average starter. And this was Lee playing fckingC!!!!! For us all yr.

But the big thing, to bosh comparisons:

Bosh has at least 2 payers right alongside him that beat out EVERY NYK this year in terms of their game...Barg, Turk...hell, even derozan...

And he still whiffed on tbe playoffs w a shit record despite:

HIMSELF having a career year AND Bargs.

When you're AllStar MAX salary PF AND 7ft C have career years and you still suck....

Not that bosh is gimp or a loser necessarily. Just there are so few players who can elevate an entire team of donkeys and will them all to victories...

Lee likely can't do this. Bosh clearly can't either IMO. And Lee has more credibility in showing himself and his game translating into TEAM wins.

Wow very nice and detailed thread. I want Lee because he's homegrown. But if Bosh was willing to go cheaper he clearly the better player. The thing is Lee isn't going to ask for as much money. And it'd kill me to see him in another uniform. Hopefully he stays a Knick. But I'd say I could live with any of them except for Boozer. He's a good 2nd option, but I don't think he'd survive well in New York.

When I have to say... Oh Lee will be better w/ another player -or- when I notice we could be JUST AS GOOD (or bad) WITH or without Lee..

Click to expand...

Bosh, Boozer and Stat all have that additional player. Boozer isn't the best player on his team and you can easily make that argument against Amar'e. As a Knick, Boozer for one would quickly decline at 28 and slowing.
Stat on the other hand might get more boards in NY and easily more points, but effective rotation would be nullified without a facilitator like Nash. Wing players like Gallo & Walker's games would suffer.

Once that happens... and playoff caliber PF's get at him the likes of KG or Josh Smith... I think he won't be enough as compared to more formidable two way players. With his current skills he's accumulated his best personal stats of his career. While the NYK's have stayed dormant.

Click to expand...

This is a good point and I've thought about it before as well. Lee is rarely, if ever, double teamed. He has an arsenal of scoring moves within 15-20 feet from the hoop, but no teams have given him the respect of a double team and he learned to make the most of it.

That is a good point in a case against Lee. Out of the 3 most likely PF/C players the Knicks could sign (Bosh, Stat and Lee) Lee is the best passer. So he has a counter against double teams, but it's less of a direct scoring threat.

Stoudemire can crash through double teams, but doesn't pass out of them well. Bosh has a handful of counters - dribble drive, pass, fade, hook, spin etc. Lee, on the other hand, is least likely to be successful one on one with a KG, Smoove, Horford, Perkins, and the most limited against double teams when you compare him to Amar'e and Bosh.

That's a fair point.

I do just have to remind everyone of this dunk of Lee crunching one on Stoudemire's grill.



God I don't miss Nate BTW. Less than an after thought.

D'Antoni's response to the tech was brilliant.

"To be honest with you, that's why you don't have concealed weapons, 'cause I'd have shot him at that point."

Click to expand...

Once that happens... and playoff caliber PF's get at him the likes of KG or Josh Smith... I think he won't be enough as compared to more formidable two way players. With his current skills he's accumulated his best personal stats of his career. While the NYK's have stayed dormant.

He's not an impact type, and I don't want more expensive compliments so... his position must be upgraded or a servicable cheaper option must be found IMO.

Click to expand...

While I agree to a point, you have to remember he's been playing out of position for 2 seasons and has consistently performed in the regular season against both elite PF's and C's of this league. Not necessarily defensively but offensively his contributions usually outshine his matchup.

It's really speculation, if whether playing alongside a legit defensive C will improve or decrease his performance, you can argue either way.