However, much of the above appears to out of someone's imagination.
William Conley was the first president of the Watch Tower Society before it was incorporated; this information is freely available on many different websites owned by Bible Students. the last mention of him in the pages of the Watch Tower is in that of a letter published in the Watch Tower of June 15, 1894 (there evidently was a special issue of June 11 which has been combined with the June 15 issue). However, most Jehovah's Witnesses are probably not aware of William Conley.
I do not know of anytime that Russell ever said anything about Armageddon as coming in 1881. Russell, at that time, believed that Armageddon -- the time of trouble -- had started in 1874, and that it would last until 1914. As far as I know, no one was expecting Armageddon to come in 1881. Russell adopted this teaching from Barbour; he later believed that Armageddon had not yet started, but that it would begin a few years before 1914 and end in 1914; in 1904, Russell adopted a view similar to some of his associates that Armageddon would not start until 1914, and would continue for some time after 1914.
Much of what is being circulated about Conley, however, is out people's imagination (as such is often done as related to Russell). I do not know to what extent Conley rejected Russell's views, but there were many who rejected Russell's views on many points who were associated with the Bible Students movement. The idea that Russell swindled Conley out of thousands of dollars is, to say that least, unfounded.
If Conley was upset about something related to 1881, there appears to be no historical record of such. At least up to 1894 (13 years after 1881), Brother Conley was still on friendly terms with Russell. Conley died in 1897. Many have made a big deal out the fact that Russell failed to acknowledge his death in the pages of the Watch Tower, and from that imaginative speculations have developed and often presented as though fact. I do not know why Russell did not enter such a notice in the pages of the Watch Tower. It could be for many different reasons.
One thing I might note, however, is that from the very start of the Watch Tower Society, the agreement between Russell and the Society was that Russell was to retain control over the Watch Tower magazine and his writings. For instance, Russell, until he died, considered the Watch Tower magazine "his" magazine; however, he never expressed the same about the Watch Tower Society itself.
Many who were associated with Russell also submitted articles to other magazines, such as "Zion's Day-Star" and "The World's Hope." Russell never prohibited such, nor did he ever claim any authority to prohibit any of the Bible Students from subscribing or using those magazines (or other magazines of that time), but he did point out their misrepresentation of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. Concerning these two papers, Russell wrote: "We have nothing but kindly personal feelings toward the Editors of these two papers; with both of whom we are on intimate and friendly terms. It is error and falsity which we oppose, not men." -- Watch Tower, April, 1883, page 2.
Will stop for today...
Last edited by ResLight; Feb 15, 2011 at 18:40.
What's your point?
My point was that William Henry Conley was associating with people of many denominations, AND he donated money to many denominations AND he stopped giving Charles Taze Russell donations, shortly after his failed predictions. Why would Russell take Conley's name off as the first president, if Conley still believed in Russell's teachings?
Charles Taze Russell measured pyramids to predict the end of the world in 1874. When his prediction did not come true, he said Jesus took his throne in 1874 "invisibly" and that Armageddon would come in 1878, 1881, 1914, and 1915. None of those predictions would come true, though.
Here's the quotes:
"The 'grand gallery' measures 1874 inches long at the top, 1878 inches long at a groove cut in its sides about midway between bottom and top and 1881
inches at the bottom. Now notice these three distinct dates(1874, 1878, 1881) are marked by the pyramid"-Charles Taze Russell Zion's Watchtower
"There is no reason for changing the figures; they are God's dates, not ours; 1914 is not the day for the beginning, but the end!"-Charles Taze Russell
"However, in 1912, he back-pedalled somewhat:
"...he wrote that, while the prophecy remains valid, the power of the Gentiles could end either in October 1914 or in October 1915."
"The Gentile Times prove that the present governments must all be overthrown about the close of A.D. 1915"-Watchtower, Nov 1914
"The end of 6000 years is 1873."-Charles Taze Russell Zion's Watchtower
Charles Taze Russell is the founder of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
He referred to God as Jehovah, rejected the trinity, and referred to Jesus as a god, just like the New World Translation.
"Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshipped, and properly so. While he was not the God, Jehovah, he was a god."-
Charles Taze Russell Watchtower
"When the Watch Tower Society was founded in 1881, William Conley donated $3500 (70%) of the $5000 original capital. Joseph Russell donated $1000 (20%), with Charles Taze Russell donating only $500 (10%)."
when Conley's friend Charles Taze Russell fell under the spell of Nelson Barbour and started teaching that Christ had invisibly returned to the vicinity of the earth in 1874, and when Russell started predicting the Rapture for Passover 1878, and then 1881, Conley evidently must have put some amount of faith in Russell.
"However, sometime in 1882 Conley evidently decided that he would make no more "large" contributions to finance Russell's schemes. From latter 1882 until the mid-1890s, the Watch Tower Society reported receiving very few donations, and as a result conducted minimal activity during that ten year stretch."
"William Conley and his wife Sarah (who also will always be noted as being two of the five original "Bible Students"), no longer supported nor believed in the teachings of the Watch Tower Society."
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Last edited by abcd; Feb 16, 2011 at 11:34.
And it's probably fair to say the preaching will reach the entire earth before they find your cuzzo. I mean it's over 90% of the globe now. How much longer is needed with Internet and other factors to help?
This is how weak your argument is. I have asked you to find another group that has preached Jesus message of the Kingdom after the Apostles died, up until JW now. You can't do it. Because it didn't exist. That is because true worship was trampled on until the time of the end. So there was wholesale corruption as far as Christianity was concerned for milleniums. So the Kingdom message was tainted. Until JW's.
So sorry, it's not self fulfilling. It was just the time Jehovah designated to re-establish true worship. But, you don't get it. Over your head.
Book X says "if people in every country eat chocolate cake, you will have great power"
Group A reads this in Book X and sets out to get people in every country to eat chocolate cake.
Does this mean Book X is an amazing book with fulfilled prophecies?
No. It ends up being a bunch of people eating chocolate cake. Nothing more. You will see. It may not be until your deathbed, but you will see.
And we already have the commone ancestor. Shown it to you a million times. If you can find any evidence that contradicts evolution, actual evidence backed up by data, facts, etc. Please, give me this information. You claim you are smarter than biologists, archeologists, geneticists, astronomers, etc. Please bring us your data that shows we are wrong.
Just one tiny bit of evidence. It's not hard. Find a mammal fossil in the wrong place. Show the genetic evidence that contradicts evolution. Anything. It shouldn't be that hard. You claim the scientists don't know what they're doing. Please enlighten us. I'm quite certain geneticists would like to know what they are doing wrong.
Oh, that's right. You have nothing. Every single bit of evidence supports evolution, contradicts the bible and proves your beliefs wrong. All you have is a book that is inaccurate, contradicting, false and completely illogical.
But since you believe this book, all the data is wrong, even though you have nothing physical to prove the data wrong. Have fun eating that chocolate cake.
Whether it is fact or opinion people are not perfect, they always make and continue to make mistakes. The only way to disprove this statement is to find a perfect human. There are tons of evidence that support that fact that people do in fact make mistakes, constantly, all the time.
But does it mean that there is absolutely no way there is a perfect person?
While I do not believe that there is no perfect person, that question is almost impossible to disprove. We would have to invent some sort of system/scale/rating and agree on some standard of what perfection is. Then we would have to visit every single human being on this earth while births and deaths are happening every day and use that scale on people. That sounds pretty improbable to accomplish.
Nothing is an end all be all. Math and numbers are not even exact. Science is always re-correcting itself. I.E. The brontosaurus, Thomas Edison and electricity, The Incas, etc.
After saying all that,
You cannot prove that Science is 100% accurate purely factual and correct. And the reason why it isn't, is because of us. We are flawed and what we touch becomes flawed. That does not mean we give up on science.
I cannot prove that Jesus was the Son of God and the Bible is a legit book regardless of its translation/scientific/human inaccuracies. All I can do is try my best to be there for you if are ever in need.
There is middle ground in this in a logical world. There is no Science vs. Religion. Both are flawed systems but they are useful systems.
poster formerly known as jeckomaru
The theory of evolution was developed over 100 years ago. Every single bit of evidence found since then has only supported and strengthened evolution. There has never been one shred, not the tiniest bit, of evidence that has contradicted evolution. Not one. And with the recent rise in genetic understanding and mapping of genomes, there leaves little doubt. All of our vaccines are developed through evolutionary theory. They would not work if evolution were false. 99% of scientists agree that evolution is a FACT. Beyond a reasonable doubt.
Does this mean we should throw away all of this knowledge because it contradicts a book?
No. On the contrary. Find evidence (actual evidence suported by verifiable data/testing) that contradicts evolution and supports this book. Or re-think the book. Then we can begin a discussion. Until then...what else do we have left? Words in a book contradicted by facts and evidence. Nothing more.
poster formerly known as jeckomaru
The Watchtower Bible & Tract Society has hinted that they believe Armageddon will come in 2034.
In the 2003 December 15 Watchtower Magazine it says:
"Just think what that meant for those then living! Only 120 years more and Jehovah would bring "the deluge of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active from under the heavens."—Genesis 6:17.
"What about us? Some 90 years have passed since the last days of this system of things began in 1914. We are certainly in "the time of the end."
"In modern times, sincere students of the Bible have learned from the inspired Scriptures that this system is doomed to destruction."
"Jehovah has kept these warnings in front of his people by means of timely reminders through the spiritual food provided by "the faithful and discreet slave."
"This warning is not to be taken lightly. Almighty God always keeps his word. (Isaiah 55:10, 11)
He did in Noah's day, and he will in our day."
"Although the Flood seems remote from our day, it clearly provides a warning that we must not ignore."
"It is imperative that we "keep on the watch" and prove ourselves ready for Jehovah's day."
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Gravitational Theory, or The Universal Theory of Gravity is taught in schools as fact. Does this mean gravity is not proven and should not be taught in schools? Do you believe gravity is false?
Don't get caught up in nomenclature. Stick to the evidence.
And you use the word "witness" as proof. When that is from YOUR version of the bible. Rather convenient, don't you think. In other versions, it is translated as "testimony" and is used in a completely different context. You change the translation/context how you see fit.
So if there was a group called "Jehovah's Testimony", that did everything in the bible based on THEIR interpretation, suddenly THEY are the greatest group. Prove they aren't based on THEIR version. Guess what, you can't.
Meanwhile, I am supposed to give up everything we know as fact, because a book that thinks bats are birds, rabbits chew cud, men can live in the belly of fish, which the person I'm supposed to worship thought a whale was a fish, and that 15 million indiviuals can all fit on a boat, and that two individuals of a complex species can create an entire population, and a snake can talk, a perfect being didn't get what he wanted, etc, etc etc.
2 + 2 = 4.
If a book says 2 + 2 = 5, I consider that book to not be a good reference to cite.
If you want to say 2 + 2 = 5, provide data that supports that theory. If you can't. Be quiet on the subject. Don't tell people to give up math and follow your world. Go live your crazy, delusional, fantasy on your own.
Sorry abcd. I didn't mean to take over this thread again. But I couldn't let him say rabbits chew cud without correcting him. You were doing a good job exposing the JW hypocrisies. I didn't want to let him dodge your claims easily. Please continue.
And quite honestly, you will do anything in your power to discredit Jehovah's word. It's really laughable, because he has smacked your reasoning on the butt over and over.
You can end this by simply finding a people who spread the same exact message Jesus and the apostles preached throughout the entire earth through the milleniums until JW's did. Saying it's self fulfilling is just a crutch. God called his shot, again. This preaching of his Kingdom is only left for those who truly want his Kingdom to come. This is why he has always had a specific people. He said his people will "willingly come". So of course people would have to choose to wanna do his will. But that does not make it self fulfilling. He still called his shot!
See, though I cannot see Jesus, or Jehovah, I know they exist, because there would be no way true worship of God would be here if they didn't. There is no way Mat 24:14 could even begin to happen if he didn't exist. There is no way Isa 2:3,4 could happen if he didn't. No way Dan 2:44 could happen if he didn't. No way He could call the fall of Babylon in 539 bc the way he did. Just, no way. No other book does this in human history. No other book has a God setting dates, for x to happen, and then it does. Just this one.
Meanwhile, I'm suppose to just believe a super genetic monkey/man is responsible for two species? Because imperfect science says God does not exist, so this is our best option? No, thank you. You find the homie, we'll talk. Don't bring me any more monkeys though. Bring me the tweener.
So that means no one can stop Jehovah from getting done, whatever he said he wants done! Get it?
If the missing link was truly found, it would completely change the world. There is no need for religion of any sort. In fact, it would be banned, probably effective immediately. So what you have, are monkeys, and humans diff from modern humans. That's it. You get that, it's over. Til then, stop saying it's been found. Cuz that's a blatant lie.