Fire Damntoni Now !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ronoranina said:

What the hell is wrong w you son?? You either were there during the Ewing/ Riley years when we played all that defense, for all that time and managed not to win a chip, or you were too young to remember our team's past failures w exactly the type of team you described. We had great D and a great big man, along w guys like Oakley and Mason who could rebound and we still didn't win it all. Now you and others want to cry continuously about the lack of defense and rebounding. You'd think some of you would be more open-minded to a different style of play.

Click to expand...

What's wrong with me? Ummm...Maybe I expect more out of my coach and our team night-in and night-out. I was actually excited for Knicks basketball this year after we acquired all of our new guys and dropped all of our baggage but so far I'm disappointed. I've been a Knicks fan for 30+ years. I've seen all the ups and the many downs with this team but I don't see how anyone can be happy with D'Anotni's style of coaching.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Phoenix never won any hardware with D'Antoni correct? What makes everything think he's so great? As soon as his team played anyone decent in the playoffs they failed because they had no defense. I do miss the old Knicks team more than anything...Starks, Oakley, Smith, Ewing, Mason. Now that was a good team.

I'm wondering the same thing about you. Are you a new fan? I don't see how anyone could be happy with the way our guys aren't boxing out and rebounding, not fighting through screens, and basically only hustling part-time. Our other struggles include sucking at free throws in the 4th quarter and turning the ball over way too much. That stuff drives me nuts. How are you o.k. with this?

The key is to have balance on offense/ defense and be great as a team at something- -to have a weapon no team can deal w. I think that something could be us becoming an all-time great scoring team (w Amare, Melo and Paul this is possible), while deploying an "at times stingy" defense. Meaning, we'd play defense for stretches and get stops when needed. This team is striving game to game to be competent defensively. I think they've made progress this year. The type of D I've explained IMO will come w time.

Click to expand...

That is our problem....we are NOT even close to balanced. Our players only play defense if it means it will show up on their stat sheet. Most of the time they're not hustling for lose balls, not boxing out and following their shots (rebounding), and not calling out screens leading to mismatches. I had courtside seats for the Knicks vs. Spurs game in San Antonio and saw it all first hand. The players didn't call out screens leaving leaving mismatches like Felton on Duncan, They chucked up a ton of shots while they were blanketed, and they let anyone who wanted to come into the paint free access. Granted the refs sucked that game and I think we would've won if we got better calls, this team needs a ton of work.

This "at times" stingy defense you speak of is RARE. You know it and I know it. Most teams play stingy defense all game, why does ours have to be a "when they feel like it" point in the game?

While this team has made progress this year like you said, I don't think anyone of us can truely be happy with the teams consistent mistakes. What people don't understand is we have the talent to win now...but our coach only knows one thing about basketball...OFFENSE. If we want to win D'Antoni seriously needs to hire another defensive assistant coach to help this team and start stressing defense more...otherwise we'll continue on the same path that we've been on and be a .500 team that loses every game that we're not shooting well in.

I mean why would anyone as a coach that's getting killed in the paint every night not try something new? He's done nothing to bring up our rebounding numbers or cut our opponents points in the paint. He needs to start utilizing his bench and playing matchups rather than just running and gunning all night with our small unit. It's like he doesn't know any other way to win than what worked for him in Phoenix...and we don't have the same personnel or Steve Nash to run that style of offense. Maybe things will change if we get Carmelo and a big who can score...but right now it's not looking good and I blame that solely on D'Antoni.

TR1LL10N said:

LOL. Thanks Isa. OneStarSince92 is too stupid to understand that with each post he further gives me props while in turn making my already easy job of embarrassing him that much easier.

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It's not even the old news 'tranny' pic that Metro n abcd used to sling, played out, n moved on from. Dinosaur Skeleton surely knows this with such a rich history of being KO'd -- aka, being on KO.

Yet keeps flailing about trying to graze you w a haymaker, spurring 92 on even when it's a fata compli checkmate.

Knicksfansince92 said:

MAKE SURE YOU CUP TRILLION'S BALLS WITH ALL THAT HEAD YOU ARE GIVING HIM

Click to expand...

First he cries about Rono jumping in AFTER OneStarSince92 jumped in for Red against me. Then he cries that other posters are talking gay things about each other and NOW does the same himself.Hypocrisy is bad but not even being able to recognize ones own hypocrisy is just sad. Does this child have any functioning braincells left?

TR1LL10N said:

First he cries about Rono jumping in AFTER jumping in for Red against me. Then he cries that other posters are talking gay things about eachother and NOW does the same himself. Does this child have any functioning braincells left?

Click to expand...

FIRST OFF YOU STARTED SHIT IN THIS THREAD(1ST PAGE)
I CALLED YOU OUT ON THE STRENGTH OF MYSELF

I DON'T SAY GAY THINGS I JUST PLAYED YOUR CARD AGAINST YOU SEEMS LIKE YOU FAGS DON'T LIKE TO BE CALLED FAGS.


TRILLION,RONO,ISAYUGH, WELCOMETONY ALL LAME

iSaYughh said:

It's not even the old news 'tranny' pic that Metro n abcd used to sling, played out, n moved on from. Dinosaur Skeleton surely knows this with such a rich history of being KO'd -- aka, being on KO.

Yet keeps flailing about trying to graze you w a haymaker, spurring 92 on even when it's a fata compli checkmate.

Click to expand...

Agreed but don't use such big words or he will miss the point all together. On a side note one has to ponder the thought process and anger it takes to go looking for a pic posted 4 months ago all in order to use someone elses lame joke. I mean think about it...dude is so mad he went searching through pages and archives all for a pic of me just to try and get a shot in! To me that is just really really sad. Compounded by the fact that my girl looks nothing like a tranny and he is just repreating what another poster said 3 years ago about a completly diffferent girl. Can anyone say lame!?

Knicksfansince92 said:

FIRST OFF YOU STARTED SHIT IN THIS THREAD(1ST PAGE)
I CALLED YOU OUT ON THE STRENGTH OF MYSELF

I DON'T SAY GAY THINGS I JUST PLAYED YOUR CARD AGAINST YOU SEEMS LIKE YOU FAGS DON'T LIKE TO BE CALLED FAGS.


TRILLION,RONO,ISAYUGH, WELCOMETONY ALL LAME

Click to expand...

I started shit by pointing out what a lame thread this was? Okay, well it is! You obviously ran to post after a loss on an emotional outburst that contained no knowledge, did not contribute anything such as a a substantive opinion to debate and was not needed considering there are 20 other D'ant threads that actually have an opinion worth debating. Further, you have yet to articulate how any of these loses were D'ants fault. We are the 6th seed and all the teams ahead of us factually have a better, deeper and more experienced roster. We are undersized, Felton is playing with aninjury and the schedule has been tough but none of that matters to you because you want to jump at the chance to blame a coach you don't like without a reason just pure estrogen driven PMS emotion. L-O-S-E-R!

Flame On Trillyo!

TR1LL10N said:

Instead of taking potshots and creating contrived lame variations on the names of the players and coach how about composing an actual point worth debating. :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

i'm really not into the mass debating that goes on between you and 1/2 dozen other KO posters.
you are the king of beating others into the ground with your posting, toasting, and roasting.
I think these last few pages are a waste of time and verbage. Sorry I started this BS with a harmless pun.
you took offense and went on the offensive. your girlfriend is fine and you're a fine poster.
you and Red should take it light....or just... flame on!

:gony::beer::gony:

Knicksfansince92 said:

So you are happy with 22-20???? Ok as long as we make the playoffs I guess. So tell me how Tim Thideou can take a injury riddled Chicago team and coach them to a so far 3rd seed.

What coach in his right mind would put Chandler on HOF Tim Duncan or Shawne Williams on Dwight Howard?

Also as for a new coach I say we pick up Mike Woodson, He coaches an iso system that features better ball movement,isolations and few three pointers. He coached his Hawks to an improving record each season and his last season they won 50+ games but could not get over the hump playing a better Orlando team.

Click to expand...

To add to this:

Mike D's flaws are exposed every night with a new big having a career year in rebounds against us. This comes from Mike D not preaching Defense or teaching fundamentals. How is it that a "great coach" he can't find a way to incorporate two legit 7' defensive minded players into his system or that he will play Roger Mason over his Centers when we desperately need size.

Another flaw is why every player that joins Mike D's teams see a spike in their 3fga even if they aren't proven shooters??(Wilson,Duhon).Why is one of our best sideout of bounds plays for our center (STAT) to take a 3 pointer???

I wonder why Felton is worn out, Maybe it has to do with him playing some of the highest minutes in his career because Mike D won't open up the rotation.Same thing we seen with Duhon he was performing great then broke down because of too many minutes. All of this has to do Mike D.

nyk_nyk said:

I don't think O'Antoni is a bad coach, just not a great one. I like the improvements we've made and our core of players, but I think his basketball philosophy hurts more than it helps.

IMO, the SSOL offense serves as entertainment for the fans. This is not all bad since it puts people in the seats BUT its very one-sided and is only successful when the majority of shots are being made. Another reason I dislike the system is because it doesn't maximize players key strengths.

Example #1 - When O'antoni got here, he immediately started having Chandler shoot 3s as if that was his strength. Instead of keeping him out on the 3 pt line he should have been involved in motion schemes where he could drive to the basket more. I will note that Chandler has turned into a nice all around player.

Example #2 - Bill Walker came into the league with lots of talent (check his videos) and was a projected lottery pick before the injury. Now it's a shame how O'Antoni has forced BW into nothing more than a Steve Kerr or Eddie House type player. BW is not easy to guard since he can knock down the 3 with good accuracy plus take it to the basket strong. Too bad coach doesn't know how to maximize his talents.

Example #3 - Mozgov and AR bring size to the table which is something we are sorely lacking yet they can't crack the rotation. Anything that disrupts his speedball is not an option for him. When AR first got here coach said he was valuable because on most nights he could guard anywhere from 1 to 5. What happened? Why dismiss what he could bring defensively just because he doesn't quite fit your precious offense?

Click to expand...

You are pretty much exactly right. Here's another example to add to your 3:

Example #4 - One of our D'Antoni's biggest problems is the amount of turnovers his offensive gameplan, especially from Amare and Felton, lead to. In the case of Amare's turnovers, most are not really his fault. D'Antoni's offense keeps Amare at the top of the key all game to set up pick and rolls for our guards. He never has him post up and let the guards work the ball to him down-low. So Amare ends up catching the ball at the top of the key and is forced to either shoot it or drive to the basket...And that's why he has so many turnovers. I don't know any other team in the league that has their 6'11 PF spend his whole night at the top of the key...just doesn't make any sense.

No one should expect Amare to create his own shot outside of 19 feet yet that is what D'Antoni has him do nightly and it boggles my mind. By calling plays that keep Amare moving around the paint, it not only will help draw more doubles leading to open 3's, but it would limit his turnovers because he won't have to dribble the ball and also put him in position to get the offensive rebound. It's almost like D'Antoni doesn't know how to deviate from his system/rotation. It's like he's stuck doing it one way and that's the way it's always going to be...that needs to change if we ever want to see a championship here in NY.

CoolClyde said:

i'm really not into the mass debating that goes on between you and 1/2 dozen other KO posters.
you are the king of beating others into the ground with your posting, toasting, and roasting.
I think these last few pages are a waste of time and verbage. Sorry I started this BS with a harmless pun.
you took offense and went on the offensive. your girlfriend is fine and you're a fine poster.
you and Red should take it light....or just... flame on!

:gony::beer::gony:

Click to expand...

Quality peace pipe offering. What a fcking pic. That needs to be gifted to someone's KO pic.

Disagree on the past few pages being a non-peaceful waste of verbiage, but I'm not hooked up as nicely w the pipe of peace you and Weedson enjoy. :afro:

TR1LL10N said:

Agreed but don't use such big words or he will miss the point all together. On a side note one has to ponder the thought process and anger it takes to go looking for a pic posted 4 months ago all in order to use someone elses lame joke. I mean think about it...dude is so mad he went searching through pages and archives all for a pic of me just to try and get a shot in! To me that is just really really sad. Compounded by the fact that my girl looks nothing like a tranny and he is just repreating what another poster said 3 years ago about a completly diffferent girl. Can anyone say lame!?

Click to expand...

It's :barf:, but to the point of being :teeth:

Like a filthy clown w minimal skills, forced to try to entertain gay bachelor parties to try to make his bones (aka robin'piss running to the aid of bat'dick, using a buried picture and argument, that was a fail even when it was alive, as the douche'signal).

The fickleness of fans on this board is absolutely disgusting. But it's a message board, what should I expect?

Kiyaman makes a "point" (if you could call it that) that we are a few losses away from being (edit) under .500. Great. We are also a few wins away from being well over .500, what's your point?

Again, many on this board predicted this team would not make the playoffs, or, if they did, make the 8 seed. Right now we appear destined to OVER-achieve on that prediction.

The problem is, quite simply, there are four teams in the East we are not more talented than: Miami, Orlando, Boston and Chicago. Those teams are the elite 4 in the conference, each one is a threat to win the NBA Title. Right now, we do not have the talent to beat them, end of story. So what's the point? Fire D'Antoni, make a 5 seed at best and STILL not have home court advantage likely in any round of the playoffs? What exactly does firing Mike D'Antoni accomplish? We do not have the TALENT regardless of the coach to crack the top 4.

All this talk about "D'Antoni not preaching defense" to me is bullshit, and I really don't get WHY people don't understand this simple fact:

D'Antoni's style increases the number of shots that go up. That inevitably increases the number of possessions per team.

Now, it doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to figure out that the more possessions a team has and allows the more points total will be scored.

The Knicks currently rank #2 in the league in "Pace", basically the number of possessions that occur in a game. That right there explains why they allow so many points. They give up more possessions.

Again, the more times a team touches a ball, the more points they can and will score. Am I crazy? Why don't people understand this?

And even crazier: Turnovers are somehow NOT at all any player's faults? Are you ****ing shitting me this bullshit?

Last I checked, D'Antoni wasn't out there during the 9 game losing streak, missing wide open layups and throwing the ball out of bounds.

How bout this for a revolutionary idea, some of you might need to sit down for this one: THE PLAYERS ON THE COURT ACTUALLY EFFECT HOW THE GAME GOES! I KNOW! I WAS SHOCKED WHEN I HEARD IT TOO! THE PLAYERS ELECT TO TAKE OUTSIDE JUMPERS, THE PLAYERS MISS LAYUPS, THE PLAYERS THROW THE BALL OUT OF BOUNDS, THE PLAYERS MISS CLUTCH FREE THROWS, THE PLAYERS MAKE BAD FOULS! Now, I watched the tape over and over on this one, and turns out...it's TRUE! Mike D'Antoni didn't make a single foul, throw a single ball out of bounds, miss a single layup, miss a single free throw! AMAZING!

It's honestly disgusting, this team is OVER achieving by many of the people's estimates for this team coming into the season. That includes, especially, Kiyaman. And still you are calling for the guy's head!

MANY PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD DID NOT EVEN PROJECT US FOR THE PLAYOFFS!!!!!!!! THESE ARE THE SAME ONES CALLING FOR HIS HEAD BECAUSE WE ARE SITTING AT THE SIXTH SEED.

I would hate to be involved or associated with any corporation or business you guys run, I imagine the meetings would go something like this:

"Okay, we brought this guy in, and we project revenue in the $6,000,000 range, and this guy has brought in revenue looking to be in the $10,000,000 range. But since he got us in the $10,000,000 range, I now want $20,000,000 in revenue, beyond our capacity as a business, so we should can him."

It honestly makes me want to vomit. Mike D'Antoni CANNOT win with some of you, even when he exceeds expectations.

KingofNy said:

What's wrong with me? Ummm...Maybe I expect more out of my coach and our team night-in and night-out. I was actually excited for Knicks basketball this year after we acquired all of our new guys and dropped all of our baggage but so far I'm disappointed. I've been a Knicks fan for 30+ years. I've seen all the ups and the many downs with this team but I don't see how anyone can be happy with D'Anotni's style of coaching.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Phoenix never won any hardware with D'Antoni correct? What makes everything think he's so great? As soon as his team played anyone decent in the playoffs they failed because they had no defense. I do miss the old Knicks team more than anything...Starks, Oakley, Smith, Ewing, Mason. Now that was a good team.

I'm wondering the same thing about you. Are you a new fan? I don't see how anyone could be happy with the way our guys aren't boxing out and rebounding, not fighting through screens, and basically only hustling part-time. Our other struggles include sucking at free throws in the 4th quarter and turning the ball over way too much. That stuff drives me nuts. How are you o.k. with this?




That is our problem....we are NOT even close to balanced. Our players only play defense if it means it will show up on their stat sheet. Most of the time they're not hustling for lose balls, not boxing out and following their shots (rebounding), and not calling out screens leading to mismatches. I had courtside seats for the Knicks vs. Spurs game in San Antonio and saw it all first hand. The players didn't call out screens leaving leaving mismatches like Felton on Duncan, They chucked up a ton of shots while they were blanketed, and they let anyone who wanted to come into the paint free access. Granted the refs sucked that game and I think we would've won if we got better calls, this team needs a ton of work.

This "at times" stingy defense you speak of is RARE. You know it and I know it. Most teams play stingy defense all game, why does ours have to be a "when they feel like it" point in the game?

While this team has made progress this year like you said, I don't think anyone of us can truely be happy with the teams consistent mistakes. What people don't understand is we have the talent to win now...but our coach only knows one thing about basketball...OFFENSE. If we want to win D'Antoni seriously needs to hire another defensive assistant coach to help this team and start stressing defense more...otherwise we'll continue on the same path that we've been on and be a .500 team that loses every game that we're not shooting well in.

I mean why would anyone as a coach that's getting killed in the paint every night not try something new? He's done nothing to bring up our rebounding numbers or cut our opponents points in the paint. He needs to start utilizing his bench and playing matchups rather than just running and gunning all night with our small unit. It's like he doesn't know any other way to win than what worked for him in Phoenix...and we don't have the same personnel or Steve Nash to run that style of offense. Maybe things will change if we get Carmelo and a big who can score...but right now it's not looking good and I blame that solely on D'Antoni.

Click to expand...

Listen, we don't have anybody on our team that can really rebound like Oak, or Ewing. Our teams plays within the confines of our system, but also plays within the confines of the skills of the players on it. One of our best rebound'ers plays @ the 2. That should tell you something. When we get more serviceable players that can mix it up inside, we'll see better rebound margins. Until then we're going to look like we do..

AR and Moz are still too mistake prone to offer us help in the rebounding and defensive areas IMO. The two also don't offer much the team can use on the offensive end due to Moz being raw and TO prone and AR not being an SSOL flow player who is also extremely TO prone. I also think there's something to coach hating AR's mental make-up. Coach doesn't respect a guy who can't seem to compose himself.

Why would you blame D'ant for something that he doesn't have the personnel to accomplish? We have STAT who would rather score than grab boards and defend, but has been putting in the effort in those areas; Turiaf who can't stay on the floor for longer than 20 mpg; Gallo who @ 6'10'' can't board adequately and hasn't shown any desire on the court to change that; Chandler who is playing out of position so that we can do what we do best (*score*) and what has allowed us to be in the position as a team that we are in, but who rebounds well for a natural SF; Williams who's like a guard w no handle that can shoot the lights out, who can't board or defend his position, in a 6'9'' body; and we got lucky w Fields who's found a way to stay on the floor w his timing, smarts and rebounding prowess. He is one of our best rebounders, which is a luxury that shouldn't happen on a good team w adequate bigs.

All of this begs the question:>>>>>>>>> Wth do you expect??

You have to be realistic. We root for a team that is in its nascent stage of development. We are not whole. Therefore the balance that you and I hope for will be elusive at best for now. We need to be patient while understanding what coach is working w player-wise.

The @times stingy defense is more than possible and what this coaching staff will strive for. We need to be in the middle of the league in most defensive categories for this type of defense to work well w what we do on offense tho. Our offense can get better too. We're not there yet. Those old Phoenix teams Mike D used to coach were. That's the example for what we can be: a contending team that wins 55-60 games per season and goes deep into the playoffs to compete for a chip, and possibly wins one. Maybe we can be better defensively than those Phoenix teams. I think, AND THIS JUST MY OPINION and compete speculation, Mike D ultimately envisions our team being stingier than his former ones.

And I ofcourse I recognize what good Knick teams we had back in the day.

My point was -and you didn't really address it- that even though they rebounded and defended well, it didn't result in a championship. That's the reality alot of Knick fans on this forum can't seem to accept.

Lastly, I actually wouldn't be against hiring a D guru as an assistant, but I believe the defensive coach for our team is Dan D'antoni. Frankly, I'm not sure that will ever change as long as Mike D is our coach for obvious reasons.

Knicksfansince92 said:

DAMN ANOTHER HOMO EROTIC POST BETWEEN YOU AND TRILLION ABOUT ANOTHER GUY POSTER C'MON SON

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I wouldn't characterize the comment, "I've got sperm that are smarter than this kid" as homo-erotic. It's not hinting at anything homosexual dude..

Again, you've proved yourself to be exceptionally dumb.

*edit* Now if I said something like, "Drinking my sperm would make you smarter", lol that would be homo-erotic.

Lesson over

ronoranina said:

I wouldn't characterize the comment, "I've got sperm that are smarter than this kid" as homo-erotic. It's not hinting at anything homosexual dude..

Again, you've proved yourself to be exceptionally dumb.

*edit* Now if I said something like, "Drinking my sperm would make you smarter", lol that would be homo-erotic.

Lesson over

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You tell em guuurrrl! lol

KBlack25 said:

The fickleness of fans on this board is absolutely disgusting. But it's a message board, what should I expect?

Kiyaman makes a "point" (if you could call it that) that we are a few losses away from being (edit) under .500. Great. We are also a few wins away from being well over .500, what's your point?

Again, many on this board predicted this team would not make the playoffs, or, if they did, make the 8 seed. Right now we appear destined to OVER-achieve on that prediction.

The problem is, quite simply, there are four teams in the East we are not more talented than: Miami, Orlando, Boston and Chicago. Those teams are the elite 4 in the conference, each one is a threat to win the NBA Title. Right now, we do not have the talent to beat them, end of story. So what's the point? Fire D'Antoni, make a 5 seed at best and STILL not have home court advantage likely in any round of the playoffs? What exactly does firing Mike D'Antoni accomplish? We do not have the TALENT regardless of the coach to crack the top 4.

All this talk about "D'Antoni not preaching defense" to me is bullshit, and I really don't get WHY people don't understand this simple fact:

D'Antoni's style increases the number of shots that go up. That inevitably increases the number of possessions per team.

Now, it doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to figure out that the more possessions a team has and allows the more points total will be scored.

The Knicks currently rank #2 in the league in "Pace", basically the number of possessions that occur in a game. That right there explains why they allow so many points. They give up more possessions.

Again, the more times a team touches a ball, the more points they can and will score. Am I crazy? Why don't people understand this?

And even crazier: Turnovers are somehow NOT at all any player's faults? Are you ****ing shitting me this bullshit?

Last I checked, D'Antoni wasn't out there during the 9 game losing streak, missing wide open layups and throwing the ball out of bounds.

How bout this for a revolutionary idea, some of you might need to sit down for this one: THE PLAYERS ON THE COURT ACTUALLY EFFECT HOW THE GAME GOES! I KNOW! I WAS SHOCKED WHEN I HEARD IT TOO! THE PLAYERS ELECT TO TAKE OUTSIDE JUMPERS, THE PLAYERS MISS LAYUPS, THE PLAYERS THROW THE BALL OUT OF BOUNDS, THE PLAYERS MISS CLUTCH FREE THROWS, THE PLAYERS MAKE BAD FOULS! Now, I watched the tape over and over on this one, and turns out...it's TRUE! Mike D'Antoni didn't make a single foul, throw a single ball out of bounds, miss a single layup, miss a single free throw! AMAZING!

It's honestly disgusting, this team is OVER achieving by many of the people's estimates for this team coming into the season. That includes, especially, Kiyaman. And still you are calling for the guy's head!

MANY PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD DID NOT EVEN PROJECT US FOR THE PLAYOFFS!!!!!!!! THESE ARE THE SAME ONES CALLING FOR HIS HEAD BECAUSE WE ARE SITTING AT THE SIXTH SEED.

I would hate to be involved or associated with any corporation or business you guys run, I imagine the meetings would go something like this:

"Okay, we brought this guy in, and we project revenue in the $6,000,000 range, and this guy has brought in revenue looking to be in the $10,000,000 range. But since he got us in the $10,000,000 range, I now want $20,000,000 in revenue, beyond our capacity as a business, so we should can him."

It honestly makes me want to vomit. Mike D'Antoni CANNOT win with some of you, even when he exceeds expectations.

Click to expand...

Pretty much encapsulates everything a wise few, including yourself, have been saying in various threads.

Like I said to Rono earlier, the inescapable fact remains that we are overachieving, have had unexpectedly excellent player development, have respect and fear injected back into the franchise, and are playoff bound. And all this meets or exceeds the expectations and demands placed upon the team -- and thus D'antoni, who apparently lives and dies by how the team does, irrespective of its players.

These expectations and demands that have been met and will be *exceeded*, include the likes of Kiyaman, abcd, and pretty much every KO member and outside basketball analyst.

It is a courtesy that this ilk of fickle, petulant hater is allowed to utter an opinion before owning up to this fact, and acknowledging it. Without doing so, and allowing the perversity of logic and truth to continue, everything they say is next to worthless and a total sham.

That they continue this brazen act of doublespeak and running around like they didn't get their asses already served up is the ultimate root of bullshit.

It's akin to politicians who already ****ed up or where wrong, proved by reality, yet don't not own up...but go into overtime trying to act like it is they who are the arbiters of truth and who should be respected.
:barf:

KingofNy said:

You are pretty much exactly right. Here's another example to add to your 3:

Example #4 - One of our D'Antoni's biggest problems is the amount of turnovers his offensive gameplan, especially from Amare and Felton, lead to. In the case of Amare's turnovers, most are not really his fault. D'Antoni's offense keeps Amare at the top of the key all game to set up pick and rolls for our guards. He never has him post up and let the guards work the ball to him down-low. So Amare ends up catching the ball at the top of the key and is forced to either shoot it or drive to the basket...And that's why he has so many turnovers. I don't know any other team in the league that has their 6'11 PF spend his whole night at the top of the key...just doesn't make any sense.

No one should expect Amare to create his own shot outside of 19 feet yet that is what D'Antoni has him do nightly and it boggles my mind. By calling plays that keep Amare moving around the paint, it not only will help draw more doubles leading to open 3's, but it would limit his turnovers because he won't have to dribble the ball and also put him in position to get the offensive rebound. It's almost like D'Antoni doesn't know how to deviate from his system/rotation. It's like he's stuck doing it one way and that's the way it's always going to be...that needs to change if we ever want to see a championship here in NY.

Click to expand...

:agreed:
Damn! KingofNY.... u are killing these Dantoni-Fans with the truth in each
of your posts.
I gave up debating with these Dantoni-Fans 2 years ago.
There were to many better headcoaches available in May 2008.
Herb Williams & Mark Aquire couldve coached Isiah's players into making
the playoffs to bring up their trade value in the 2008-9 season.

The new era of players like Dr. Jay in the 70's, Magic & Bird in the 80's,
and Jordan & Pippin in the 90's, had every High School baller thinking
offensive scoring first. This made the new era of coaches in college
and pros more team-oriented in implimenting team-offense/defense.
If a young kid is scoring 15 to 20 points per game in his last two years in
High School, who would u chose to be this kids coach in college?
A) Dantoni
B) JVG

I been watching the USA basketball team for 40 years, back when the USA
team was all college players. And never has any of the coaches been single-
out to be the teams offense-coach or defense-coach, except when Dantoni
was selected to be the offensive-coach on the USA team.
I wonder if Larry Brown, or Sloan, or Pop, or Phil Jackson wouldve accept
being singled-out as the USA team offensive-coach LOL
:teeth::teeth::teeth:

KingofNy said:

What's wrong with me? Ummm...Maybe I expect more out of my coach and our team night-in and night-out. I was actually excited for Knicks basketball this year after we acquired all of our new guys and dropped all of our baggage but so far I'm disappointed. I've been a Knicks fan for 30+ years. I've seen all the ups and the many downs with this team but I don't see how anyone can be happy with D'Anotni's style of coaching.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Phoenix never won any hardware with D'Antoni correct? What makes everything think he's so great? As soon as his team played anyone decent in the playoffs they failed because they had no defense. I do miss the old Knicks team more than anything...Starks, Oakley, Smith, Ewing, Mason. Now that was a good team.

I'm wondering the same thing about you. Are you a new fan? I don't see how anyone could be happy with the way our guys aren't boxing out and rebounding, not fighting through screens, and basically only hustling part-time. Our other struggles include sucking at free throws in the 4th quarter and turning the ball over way too much. That stuff drives me nuts. How are you o.k. with this?



That is our problem....we are NOT even close to balanced. Our players only play defense if it means it will show up on their stat sheet. Most of the time they're not hustling for lose balls, not boxing out and following their shots (rebounding), and not calling out screens leading to mismatches. I had courtside seats for the Knicks vs. Spurs game in San Antonio and saw it all first hand. The players didn't call out screens leaving leaving mismatches like Felton on Duncan, They chucked up a ton of shots while they were blanketed, and they let anyone who wanted to come into the paint free access. Granted the refs sucked that game and I think we would've won if we got better calls, this team needs a ton of work.

This "at times" stingy defense you speak of is RARE. You know it and I know it. Most teams play stingy defense all game, why does ours have to be a "when they feel like it" point in the game?

While this team has made progress this year like you said, I don't think anyone of us can truely be happy with the teams consistent mistakes. What people don't understand is we have the talent to win now...but our coach only knows one thing about basketball...OFFENSE. If we want to win D'Antoni seriously needs to hire another defensive assistant coach to help this team and start stressing defense more...otherwise we'll continue on the same path that we've been on and be a .500 team that loses every game that we're not shooting well in.

I mean why would anyone as a coach that's getting killed in the paint every night not try something new? He's done nothing to bring up our rebounding numbers or cut our opponents points in the paint. He needs to start utilizing his bench and playing matchups rather than just running and gunning all night with our small unit. It's like he doesn't know any other way to win than what worked for him in Phoenix...and we don't have the same personnel or Steve Nash to run that style of offense. Maybe things will change if we get Carmelo and a big who can score...but right now it's not looking good and I blame that solely on D'Antoni.

Click to expand...

I dont want to flame Mike D, but I have to reply to your post with a thumbs up.eace: He doesnt play matchups. I've seen layup lines to the basket before games that offer more defensive resistance than the Knicks do during the game. No one steps in to take a charge. No one cuts their mans path off to the basket. Giving up the baseline has ALWAYS been a no-no in basketball, but we do it regularly. But hey if these cats think we can win with this coach more power to them. Just let it be known when we're ringless and Mike D is gone I'll be the first to tell you I TOLD YOU SO...

ronoranina said:

Listen, we don't have anybody on our team that can really rebound like Oak, or Ewing. Our teams plays within the confines of our system, but the team also plays within the confines of the skills of the players on it. One of our best rebound'ers plays @ the 2. That should tell you something. When we get more serviceable players that can mix it up inside, we'll see better rebound margins. Until then we're going to look like we do..

AR and Moz are still too mistake prone to offer us help in the rebounding and defensive areas IMO. The two also don't offer much the team can use on the offensive end due to Moz being raw and TO prone and AR not being an SSOL flow player who is also extremely TO prone. I also think there's something to coach hating AR's mental make-up. Coach doesn't respect a guy who can't seem to compose himself.

Why would you blame D'ant for something that he doesn't have the personnel to accomplish? We have STAT who would rather score than grab boards and defend, but has been putting in the effort in those areas; Turiaf who can't stay on the floor for longer than 20 mpg; Gallo who @ 6'10'' can't board adequately and hasn't shown any desire on the court to change that; Chandler who is playing out of position so that we can do what we do best (*score*) and what has allowed us to be in the position as a team that we are in, but who rebounds well for a natural SF; Williams who's like a guard w no handle that can shoot the lights out, who can't board or defend his position, in a 6'9'' body; and we got lucky w Fields who's found a way to stay on the floor w his timing, smarts and rebounding prowess. He is one of our best rebounders, which is a luxury that shouldn't happen on a good team w adequate bigs.

All of this begs the question:>>>>>>>>> Wth do you expect??

You have to be realistic. We root for a team that is in its nascent stage of development. We are not whole. Therefore the balance that you and I hope for will be elusive at best for now. We need to be patient, understand what coach is working w player-wise while continuing to remain patient.

The @times stingy defense is more than possible and what this coaching staff will strive for. We need to be in the middle of the league in most defensive categories for this type of defense to work well w what we do on offense tho. Our offense can get better too. We're not there yet. Those old Phoenix teams Mike D used to coach were. That's the example for what we can be: a contending team that wins 55-60 games per season and goes deep into the playoffs to compete for a chip, and possibly wins one. Maybe we can be better defensively than those Phoenix teams. I think, AND THIS JUST MY OPINION and compete speculation, Mike D ultimately envisions our team being stingier than his former ones.

And I ofcourse I recognize what good Knick teams we had back in the day.

My point was -and you didn't really address it- that even though they rebounded and defended well, it didn't result in a championship. That's the reality alot of Knick fans on this forum can't seem to accept.

Lastly, I actually wouldn't be against hiring a D guru as an assistant, but I believe the defensive coach for our team is Dan D'antoni. Frankly, I'm not sure that will ever change as long as Mike D is our coach for obvious reasons.

Click to expand...

Tremendous post. :beer:

The grand irony w the last paragraph, is that it so thoroughly exposes the pathology that SSOL is ultimately trash bc one SSOL D'ant team didn't win a chip. Yet a glorious Knick team littered w size, rebounding, and a HOF Center, didn't.

I'll only add, that the PHO wasn't even that great. That is, until it was revolutionized by D'antoni and the SSOL theory of play.

Led the league in scoring, took the entire NBA by storm, and essentially battled a prime defensive Spurs dynasty marked by extraordinary defense for chips.

No matter, who were the Suns? They didn't have a Shaq, Howard, or Duncan fall into their lap.

Bulk of their key pieces only became relevant as players and had their careers catapulted under D'ant's tutelage and system of play,

Diaw, Bell. Even Marion (totally lost post-D'antoni, too). And HOF Nash? An aged maybe-allstar prior. Amare, of course, developed his game there, too, from his NBA birth.

Removing how amazingly D'antoni and SSOL coached up and pumped up many Suns' players (a la what has been happening in NY now, w an upward trend), was this some juggernaut title contender, where they even a legitimate contender threat?

No. Not really. D'antoni put them on the map, and shaped that franchise like very, very few coaches can, or ever do.

That they became so relevant, dangerous, and winning of a team is a testament *too* D'antoni.

Phil Jackson is a coach we only wish we could have bc he came up w Triangle (an offense that *actually* is dependent on bigtime talent and specific players), and was able to be a good coach and win the chip with premier talent? Same for Pop.

I'd like a great coach, the rarest of things. Who can take good players and give them a good shot at greatness; not just be a good coach who can cooly take great players to greatness.

iSaYughh said:

Tremendous post. :beer:

The grand irony w the last paragraph, is that it so thoroughly exposes the pathology that SSOL is ultimately trash bc one SSOL D'ant team didn't win a chip. Yet a glorious Knick team littered w size, rebounding, and a HOF Center, didn't.

I'll only add, that the PHO wasn't even that great. That is, until it was revolutionized by D'antoni and the SSOL theory of play.

Led the league in scoring, took the entire NBA by storm, and essentially battled a prime defensive Spurs dynasty marked by extraordinary defense for chips.

No matter, who were the Suns? They didn't have a Shaq, Howard, or Duncan fall into their lap.

Bulk of their key pieces only became relevant as players and had their careers catapulted under D'ant's tutelage and system of play,

Diaw, Bell. Even Marion (totally lost post-D'antoni, too). And HOF Nash? An aged maybe-allstar prior. Amare, of course, developed his game there, too, from his NBA birth.

Removing how amazingly D'antoni and SSOL coached up and pumped up many Suns' players (a la what has been happening in NY now, w an upward trend), was this some juggernaut title contender, where they even a legitimate contender threat?

No. Not really. D'antoni put them on the map, and shaped that franchise like very, very few coaches can, or ever do.

That they became so relevant, dangerous, and winning of a team is a testament *too* D'antoni.

Phil Jackson is a coach we only wish we could have bc he came up w Triangle (an offense that *actually* is dependent on bigtime talent and specific players), and was able to be a good coach and win the chip with premier talent? Same for Pop.

I'd like a great coach, the rarest of things. Who can take good players and give them a good shot at greatness; not just be a good coach who can cooly take great players to greatness.

Click to expand...

You have heard of Micheal Jordan havent you? Besides having Mike (THE GREATEST PLAYER EVER) that team also had size and rebounding. Comparing MDA's faults with Phoenix and now the Knicks against the Ewing lead Knicks is a stretch at best.

Phoenix was a good team OFFENSIVELY. Thats it. When you only concentrate on one side of the ball you wont make it to the finals. Which that team didnt. Phil Jackson learned early that defense wins championships. Remember he played at the garden where defense was first. Pops teams always play defense. Thats why they have rings to show for it. Any coach could have his team doing SSOL and not playing defense. Its not that innovative. But, Ultimately will you win with it?