What has Damntoni Done?

I hear things like this all the time.

Bring back JVG

Bring in this guy

Bring in that guy

Bring in whomever

And nobody, not a one has ever considered that maybe JVG, guy x, y, z, a, b, c don't want to work for our insane owner...Maybe those guys DON'T want to be here...so we would be firing D'Antoni, paying his last year of salary, looking for a coach on a budget, having the team adjust to an entirely new system and philosophy, with 0 guarantee that we get anyone remotely better, that we even GET JVG (who would be better) because why on earth would JVG want to come back to work with our crazy owner, who was likely part of the reason he left in the first place?

The OWNER has to change before our coaching situation gets any better.
0 guarantee that we get anyone remotely better??Mike D'antoni isn't an offensive genius,any defensive minded coach would be better than D'antoni and would make the players way better.just look at bulls.
 

KBlack25

Starter
0 guarantee that we get anyone remotely better??Mike D'antoni isn't an offensive genius,any defensive minded coach would be better than D'antoni and would make the players way better.just look at bulls.

So it is 100% guaranteed we would get a defensive minded coach? Really, 100% guaranteed that our owner who still talks to Isiah Thomas, the biggest stain on this team in the past decade, and seriously considered bringing him back, would bring in a better coach?
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
So it is 100% guaranteed we would get a defensive minded coach? Really, 100% guaranteed that our owner who still talks to Isiah Thomas, the biggest stain on this team in the past decade, and seriously considered bringing him back, would bring in a better coach?

I think he's just saying we need a better coach. I don't think specific names are needed.
 

KBlack25

Starter
I think he's just saying we need a better coach. I don't think specific names are needed.

That's not what he said.

And yes, if you make a suggestion, like fire the coach and hire someone else, then don't half ass the shit and actually follow through making a coherent and realistic argument.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Oh the argument of D'Antoni needing to go is very coherent and very realistic. I don't think you necessarily have to name someone else. Recognizing that a change needs to take place and knowing exactly who and what's going to fit is two different things. Sure you can project and make assumptions based on what diff coaches bring to the table, but that has nothing to do with the fact that the guy who sees 1-12 from 3-point range in 17-18mins as acceptable...CAN. NOT. remain the leader of this team going forward....that is if we're looking to win a title and not just become a perennial playoff loser.
 

KBlack25

Starter
Oh the argument of D'Antoni needing to go is very coherent and very realistic. I don't think you necessarily have to name someone else. Recognizing that a change needs to take place and knowing exactly who and what's going to fit is two different things. Sure you can project and make assumptions based on what diff coaches bring to the table, but that has nothing to do with the fact that the guy who sees 1-12 from 3-point range in 17-18mins as acceptable...CAN. NOT. remain the leader of this team going forward....that is if we're looking to win a title and not just become a perennial playoff loser.

And if you are going to make the argument, bring me names of guys that can be better. No, Herb Williams is not better.

The argument is coherent for D'Antoni to go, but until you factor in the fact that our owner, James Dolan, might be clinically retarded and the fact that he has never hired a coach that has lasted very long, and the fact that he is talking to Isiah, until you can come with a coherent argument that James Dolan will not fire D'Antoni, and being forced to pay two coaches, will not cheap out and/or hire someone worse, then the argument is irrelevant.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
And if you are going to make the argument, bring me names of guys that can be better. No, Herb Williams is not better.

The argument is coherent for D'Antoni to go, but until you factor in the fact that our owner, James Dolan, might be clinically retarded and the fact that he has never hired a coach that has lasted very long, and the fact that he is talking to Isiah, until you can come with a coherent argument that James Dolan will not fire D'Antoni, and being forced to pay two coaches, will not cheap out and/or hire someone worse, then the argument is irrelevant.

I disagree completely. I'm certain there are many qualified coaches out there that can do a better job than MDA. Someone brought the assistant coach from Portland thread, for instance. JVG would be great too. The truth of the matter all of that is speculation -- will they come, can they come; will Dolan make an acceptable choice (or is that a Donnie Walsh decision?).

What isn't speculation, however, is that we need a new coach. What I would give for a coach like Tom Thibodeau. Someone that mirrors his style of coaching would be sufficient -- team coach and defensive mastermind that also runs great offensive sets.
 

knicksin60

Starter
Mike D'antoni is probably the worst and most overrated coach that the Knicks have had in the last two decades.He makes Isiah Thomas look like Red Holzman.Seriously, even Sidney Lowe couldn't coach a team which has Amar'e Stoudemire, Ray Felton, and Wilson Chandler to lose to the Cavaliers, Clippers, Kings and Warriors all in one season.The Knicks would probably win more games being coached by one of the MSG soda vendors than they would by celebrity coach D'antoni.

What surprises me the most is not that the Knicks have been underachievers since the arrival of D'antoni, but that Knick fans have yet to start a "Fire D'antoni" campaign around Penn Plaza.I don't understand why there are Knick fans that even love this guy.He couldn't coach a loving father to defend his children from a kidnapper.The Knicks won't make the playoffs if D'antoni is still coaching this team by season's end.They will collapse down the stretch like the Mets and G-men.If the Knicks miss the playoffs, do you really think that Carmelo Anthony, Chris Paul or D-Will are going to want to play for a coach who can't coach his team to finish the season ahead in the standings to less talented teams like the Pacers and Bobcats?

I don't want to hear that the reason why the Knicks overall quality of play has dwindled is because their schedule hasn't been as easy as it was earlier in the season.When your team is getting blown out at home by a team that has only 3 road victories and a team that ends up stopping another teams' record setting losing streak, the coach has to be held accountable.I don't need to list this guy's flaws.They have already been listed by other posters in this thread.The Knicks falling below the five hundred mark should be the final straw for D'antoni's coaching career in NY.Please make D'antoni's firing a future possibility, Mr. James L. Dolan!
 
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KBlack25

Starter
Mike D'antoni is probably the worst and most overrated coach that the Knicks have had in the last two decades.He makes Isiah Thomas look like Red Holzman.

Yikes. I stopped reading after this sentence, because whatever credibility you had died with the end of it. If this is really what you believe then I think you need to take a step back and reconsider your life. Isiah was the worst thing to happen to NY basketball since ever. Say what you want about D'Antoni, he isn't feuding with his best player, when he did feud with Marbury D'Antoni never went public (like Isiah), Isiah caused this team total and utter embarassment, he traded away picks like it was going out of style, had a sexual harassment suit.

D'Antoni could run over my dog, he would still be better than Isiah.
 
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Yikes. I stopped reading after this sentence, because whatever credibility you had died with the end of it. If this is really what you believe then I think you need to take a step back and reconsider your life. Isiah was the worst thing to happen to NY basketball since ever. Say what you want about D'Antoni, he isn't feuding with his best player, when he did feud with Marbury D'Antoni never went public (like Isiah), Isiah caused this team total and utter embarassment, he traded away picks like it was going out of style, had a sexual harassment suit.

D'Antoni could run over my dog, he would still be better than Isiah.
It doesn't matter if Isiah is worse than D'antoni,D'antoni still should get fired.
 

KBlack25

Starter
It doesn't matter if Isiah is worse than D'antoni,D'antoni still should get fired.

I agree that it doesn't matter if Isiah is worse (he is) - D'Antoni should be judged on his own wholly separate from any other coach, but I didn't bring Isiah up in this discussion. Someone else brought in the comparison...
 

KBlack25

Starter
Responses from other people I have showed this quote to:

knicksin60 said:
(Mike D'Antoni) makes Isiah Thomas look like Red Holzman

"That is such an absurd comment it's mind boggling"

"That's beyond ridiculous...beyond it"

"That's insanity"

"Well, that's the silliest thing I've ever read."

"You know my feelings about Mike D'Antoni, I think he can't coach defense...but saying he is that much worse than Isiah? Hilarious."
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
I made these points in other threads but they are worth mentioning again:

Felton is having a career year due to the system and the coaching D'ant is known for when it comes to PG's. Our record closely reflects Felton's production, in the beginning of the year Felton struggled being new to the system and the record reflected that. Once he settled down and produced, we were one of the hottest teams in the league. Now that Felton had an injury and is in a slump we are struggling once again. Had Felton been putting up his historical numbers the entire year I doubt we would be the 6th seed and I doubt we would have a winning record.

So my first answer to the thread title is that D'antoni has turned Felton from a mediocre PG to an all-star caliber PG. In a league dominated by teams with multiple stars having 1.5 stars (Amare and Felton) is the bare minimum in order to compete. This is the first year Felton is in this system and it is already paying dividends. As Felton matures and fully acclimates to NYC, the system and the players you can expect his numbers to go up even more. Felton has all the talent and athletic gifts to be a consistent all-star and top tier PG and now has the system to allow him to do so.

D'antoni is also getting career years out of Chandler, Amare and Williams another important factor to consider when thinking where this team could have been under another coach.

He recognized early, instilled confidence and started Feilds, a 2nd round pick who is easily now a top 3 rookie as a result.

This is the 1st year D'ant had a roster capable of competing and we are still max money away form a complete roster so to damn D'antoni and make any conclusions now is premature, irrational and shows a lack of understanding about the game of basketball. Again, as this is such an important point, our roster is incomplete and we are looking to add another max contract caliber player along with filling role player needs through trades and exemptions. D'ant has us exactly where we should be, the 6th seed. Every single team ahead of us has a factually better and deeper roster with more than one star. To think that bringing in another coach would magically catapult us past these better teams is moronic.

My last points are so obvious but evidently need to be stated...bringing in a defensive coach will not make this team play anywhere near elite defense! Our roster is built for SSOL and up tempo ball and D'ant is the best coach possible for the current roster. We have gotten our wins buy playing our style of ball and exploiting our speed, spreading the floor and knocking down shots. When we lose it's because other teams are able to slow the game down and exploit our lack of size and depth. If you think our lack of size or depth is a problem now, try bringing in a half court set coach to try and bang down low in a slowed down conventional offense! Getting rid of D'ant without drastically changing our roster only 1/2 year into phase one of our rebuilding plan would be idiotic and short sided.
 

Toons

is the Bo$$
I made these points in other threads but they are worth mentioning again:

Felton is having a career year due to the system and the coaching D'ant is known for when it comes to PG's. Our record closely reflects Felton's production, in the beginning of the year Felton struggled being new to the system and the record reflected that. Once he settled down and produced, we were one of the hottest teams in the league. Now that Felton had an injury and is in a slump we are struggling once again. Had Felton been putting up his historical numbers the entire year I doubt we would be the 6th seed and I doubt we would have a winning record.

So my first answer to the thread title is that D'antoni has turned Felton from a mediocre PG to an all-star caliber PG. In a league dominated by teams with multiple stars having 1.5 stars (Amare and Felton) is the bare minimum in order to compete. This is the first year Felton is in this system and it is already paying dividends. As Felton matures and fully acclimates to NYC, the system and the players you can expect his numbers to go up even more. Felton has all the talent and athletic gifts to be a consistent all-star and top tier PG and now has the system to allow him to do so.

D'antoni is also getting career years out of Chandler, Amare and Williams another important factor to consider when thinking where this team could have been under another coach.

He recognized early, instilled confidence and started Feilds, a 2nd round pick who is easily now a top 3 rookie as a result.

This is the 1st year D'ant had a roster capable of competing and we are still max money away form a complete roster so to damn D'antoni and make any conclusions now is premature, irrational and shows a lack of understanding about the game of basketball. Again, as this is such an important point, our roster is incomplete and we are looking to add another max contract caliber player along with filling role player needs through trades and exemptions. D'ant has us exactly where we should be, the 6th seed. Every single team ahead of us has a factually better and deeper roster with more than one star. To think that bringing in another coach would magically catapult us past these better teams is moronic.

My last points are so obvious but evidently need to be stated...bringing in a defensive coach will not make this team play anywhere near elite defense! Our roster is built for SSOL and up tempo ball and D'ant is the best coach possible for the current roster. We have gotten our wins buy playing our style of ball and exploiting our speed, spreading the floor and knocking down shots. When we lose it's because other teams are able to slow the game down and exploit our lack of size and depth. If you think our lack of size or depth is a problem now, try bringing in a half court set coach to try and bang down low in a slowed down conventional offense! Getting rid of D'ant without drastically changing our roster only 1/2 year into phase one of our rebuilding plan would be idiotic and short sided.

good points.
a new coach isnt gonna make guys play defense, these are nba players, they know the concept of defense. Our team is young, and by the 3rd quarter their legs get tired and they stop playing the full court defense that they do in the first quarter.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
good points.
a new coach isnt gonna make guys play defense, these are nba players, they know the concept of defense. Our team is young, and by the 3rd quarter their legs get tired and they stop playing the full court defense that they do in the first quarter.

Thanks, I think it's less about effort and more about the roster as currently constructed. We have a 14 million dollar hole in our roster from a useless Curry gobbling burgers on the bench and no elite defenders. The people blaming D'ant for our defense while ignoring our roster are just silly.
 

Crazy⑧s

Evacuee
I only read the last part.

bringing in a defensive coach will not make this team play anywhere near elite defense! Our roster is built for SSOL and up tempo ball and D'ant is the best coach possible for the current roster. We have gotten our wins by playing our style of ball and exploiting our speed, spreading the floor and knocking down shots.

When we lose it's because other teams are able to slow the game down and exploit our lack of size and depth. If you think our lack of size or depth is a problem now, try bringing in a half court set coach to try and bang down low in a slowed down conventional offense! Getting rid of D'ant without drastically changing our roster only 1/2 year into phase one of our rebuilding plan would be idiotic and short sided.

I don't necessarily agree that the roster is built for the SSOL. Often, in fact, we run a motion offence 3/2 with a high 4 as we all know. In that situation, without effective ball movement, it's STAT or Felton who take a lot of the shots. This also subtracts from Gallo's playmaking game, which as far as I see it, is stupid.


bringing in a half court set coach to try and bang down low in a slowed down conventional offense! Getting rid of D'ant without drastically changing our roster only 1/2 year into phase one of our rebuilding plan would be idiotic and short sided.

Often, and I'm sure you'll agree, our offence has floundered under the weight of its own flaws. We wouldn't need to convert to a slowed down, bang down low, conventional offence with another coach, but it's not something we couldn't add to our offence. The absence of a back to the basket, power drop/power v set in MD's offence has always been beyond me. One of the top 3 paint scorers in recent history on our squad, and we constantly play a high elbow face up set for STAT? How predictable are we?

And a post game is easily incorporated in to transition. That goes without saying! Incorporating spacing, dummy cuts and screens for Amar'e in transition to get his opponent closed out is something I've never seen and always wondered about. Alvin Gentry used it very effectively in the playoffs last year. I didn't watch any Suns regular season games so I can't comment on them.

We have gotten our wins by playing our style of ball and exploiting our speed, spreading the floor and knocking down shots.

But we've gotten our losses from it as well. IMO, it's a predictable offence that suffers against high level defence, UNLESS we hit more than 12 3 pointers in a game. If we do, our record is 11-1: almost half of our total wins. But again, that's evidence of our offence being easily anticipated.

I'd like to see what we're capable of with a new head coach next year, while still incorporating facets of the current offence. Why? Basically, I think the D'Antoni philosophy is reliant on its components, and MD is completely reliant on the philosophy and unwilling to adjust if the components aren't perfectly compatible, thus making him incompatible for his own roster.

And then there's defence..........
 

Crazy⑧s

Evacuee
good points.
a new coach isnt gonna make guys play defense, these are nba players, they know the concept of defense. Our team is young, and by the 3rd quarter their legs get tired and they stop playing the full court defense that they do in the first quarter.

Our second unit plays more full court D than our starters. One of the biggest non-factors about our defensive abilities is our communication as well. Defensive cohesion needs as much practice as offensive.

Would you say that we just have bad defensive players?
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Often, and I'm sure you'll agree, our offence has floundered under the weight of its own flaws. We wouldn't need to convert to a slowed down, bang down I don't necessarily agree that the roster is built for the SSOL. Often, in fact, we run a motion offence 3/2 with a high 4 as we all know. In that situation, without effective ball movement, it's STAT or Felton who take a lot of the shots. This also subtracts from Gallo's playmaking game, which as far as I see it, is stupid.low, conventional offence with another coach, but it's not something we couldn't add to our offence. The absence of a back to the basket, power drop/power v set in MD's offence has always been beyond me. One of the top 3 paint scorers in recent history on our squad, and we constantly play a high elbow face up set for STAT? How predictable are we?

Well, I think we can agree that we are not built for a half court offense considering our size and depth issues. For the most part we move the ball quite effectively and when we were hot we were one of the league leaders in assists.

See, I look at it the other way around...it's our offense and system that allows us to win games and overachieve above the lack of size, second star and depth of our roster. Yes, I agree when our 3 point shot is not falling or our ball movement is stagnant our offense is ineffective. When that happens it magnifies and highlights the deficiencies of our roster. No coach is going to make us better defenders or rebounder's without drastically changing the roster. These problems are a constant until the roster is improved therefore we need to have the type of high tempo, high scoring offense to compensate for our structural weaknesses.

BTW, Amare is not a back to the basket player so why would we run an offense like that through him? It would be akin to playing Shaq on the perimeter.

But we've gotten our losses from it as well. IMO, it's a predictable offence that suffers against high level defence, UNLESS we hit more than 12 3 pointers in a game. If we do, our record is 11-1: almost half of our total wins. But again, that's evidence of our offence being easily anticipated.

See answer above.

I'd like to see what we're capable of with a new head coach next year, while still incorporating facets of the current offence. Why? Basically, I think the D'Antoni philosophy is reliant on its components, and MD is completely reliant on the philosophy and unwilling to adjust if the components aren't perfectly compatible, thus making him incompatible for his own roster.

And then there's defence..........

You are entitled to want to see anything and that is fine but lets lay the blame where the blame is due. 90% roster/10% coach IMHO. I for one am excited to see a complete roster competing nightly in this system. Lets remember my other points about calls for change 1/2 a year into PHASE ONE of a TWO phase rebuild. Our roster and rebuild is incomplete so maybe it's not Melo but we have help coming.


Obviously during losses nothing looks good and since we only are one game above .500 there is a lot to critique. That said, I think we are overarching from where most people including the "expert's" thought at the beginning of the season. We are the 6th seed and I can't name a single team ahead of us that does not have a better or deeper roster. D'ant has multiple guys playing the best ball of their careers so I fail to see how he or another coach could do more.
 

clumsy

Rotation player
I kinda agree with you Trillion. We don't have a true SSOL roster. Hell Amare doesn't really have the help he needs for us to be more than a 6th seed.

At the same time, i don't believe offense ever wins in the playoffs or in any sport for that matter. For an up tempo coach, D'Antoni also sure is stubborn. Putting players in permanent doghouses (because of their lack of offensive ability or athletic ability) and using such a short rotation. These are pretty big red flags. Blind loyalty is not necessarily the best quality in a leader.

I would put D'Antoni on the hotseat if we barely make the playoffs. If we are a solid 6th seed i'll give him another year to see what happens.
 
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