LETS END IT NOW: Mike D'antoni Edition

We once had a thread like this for Stephon Starbury, now its Antoni's turn.

This topic seems to be all over the place on this board, so lets get all the D'antoni supporters, and all the Anti-Antoni posters and go head to head

I dont support him. I think his 4 50 win seasons in Phoenix is overrated, Steve nash is basically like having a coach on the court..at least on offense. Those teams had a lot of talent. They did win 50+ games with Amare out in a tough western conference, thats probably the best way to counter my argument but at the same time that was when Steve Nash was at his best. That was when he was the MVP, and he still had alotta talent alongside him.

I do think his ability to coach defense is more then questionable, although in phoenix the suns weren't as bad as some people say they were defensively...they did average more possessions then most of the other teams, possibly all of them. Im still not impressed, and his substitution patterns/decision making is more then suspect as well. He has a poor ability to communicate with his players and his behavior is embarrassing at times.

I really don't want to reiterate all my previous points nor am I a huge Dant supporter. What I am is pragmatic...I see that people are unfairly blaming Dant for our teams woes and distorting his record. Before we get into a long debate lets post the guys resume...shall we?

Player career

After a college career at Marshall University, D'Antoni was drafted by the Kansas City-Omaha Kings in the 2nd round of the 1973 NBA Draft. He was all-NBA Rookie Second Team choice for 1974. After 3 seasons for the Kings (1973-1976), he played for the Spirits of St. Louis of the American Basketball Association in 1976, and for the San Antonio Spurs (again in the NBA) in 1977. His Spurs career lasted just two games before he found an opportunity to play successfully overseas.
D'Antoni was then called by the Italian team of Olimpia Milano, starting a career which saw him become the club's all-time leading scorer. He was voted the league?s top point guard of all time in 1990 and he paced his team to five Italian League titles, two Euroleague titles, two Cups of Italy, one Korac Cup and one Intercontinental Cup. Being of Italian origin, D'Antoni was also selected to play on the Italian national team for the European championship in 1989.
D'Antoni's nickname in Europe was Ars?ne Lupin for his ability in stealing balls from other players.




Coaching career

[edit] Italy

D?Antoni began his career as head coach for his most loyal club, Milan: here he remained for four seasons, from 1990 to 1994, leading the club to the 1992 European Championship Final Four and 1993 Korac Cup. He was then chosen to coach Benetton Treviso, another major Italian basketball club. During his tenure (1994?1997), the team captured the Cup of Europe and Coppa Italia (in 1995) and won the domestic league title in 1996?97. Coach D?Antoni's Italian teams went to the playoffs each season, and he was twice voted the league?s Coach of the Year. In 2001, D'Antoni returned to Italy for a second stint as the coach of Benetton Treviso. In his one season back in Europe, he led the team to a 28?8 record, a league championship and 2002 Euroleague Final Four, coaching a team filled with many former NBA stars.
[edit] Early NBA

The first NBA coaching job held by D'Antoni was with the Denver Nuggets in 1997-98 as the club?s director of player personnel. He also did some broadcasting work with TNT during that season. The next year, he became Nuggets head coach, but was fired after a poor performance during the strike-shortened 1998-99 season. D'Antoni then went on to become a scout for San Antonio Spurs during the 1999-2000 season. He was also an assistant for the Portland Trail Blazers in 2000-01.
[edit] Phoenix Suns

In 2002, he made his return to the NBA as a Phoenix Suns assistant. In 2003, D'Antoni was hired with 61 games left in the season as the head coach of the Phoenix Suns<sup id="cite_ref-1" class="reference">[2]</sup> and, despite leading the team to a poor record in the second half of the year, he received a vote of confidence for producing inspired play from an injury riddled team. The next season, D'Antoni helped the team to acquire Steve Nash, which began an incredible turnaround for the franchise. After the addition of Nash, the D'Antoni-coached Suns won fifty or more games in four consecutive seasons. D'Antoni won the NBA Coach of the Year Award during his first full season with the Suns. His style, dubbed "Seven Seconds or Less", was described in a book of that name.
[edit] Team USA

D'Antoni was selected to the coaching staff for the Team USA Olympic Basketball squad under head coach Mike Krzyzewski and participated in the 2006 FIBA World Championship, winning a bronze medal.<sup id="cite_ref-2" class="reference">[3]</sup>. Pundits believe his familiarity with the three-point shot and the zone defense, hallmarks of the international game, will be valuable assets to the team.
D'Antoni has dual citizenship in the United States and Italy: this made him the first Italian ever to lead an NBA team. He is fluent in both English and Italian.
[edit] New York Knicks


D'Antoni coaching the New York Knicks in 2009.


As of May 5, 2008, D'Antoni was told that he was free to speak with other teams about a coaching job next season, although Steve Kerr requested he stay with the Suns.<sup id="cite_ref-3" class="reference">[4]</sup> On May 9, D'Antoni was made an offer by the New York Knicks.<sup id="cite_ref-4" class="reference">[5]</sup> The next day, D'Antoni accepted the 4 year, $24 million offer and became the Knicks' head coach. <sup id="cite_ref-D.27Antoni_accepts_Knicks_0-1" class="reference">[1]</sup><sup id="cite_ref-5" class="reference">[6]</sup> His Knicks career has not yet been as successful as his time with the Suns, but the Knicks have not been expected to contend until at least the 2010-11 campaign, when they are hoping to use their considerable salary cap space to sign top flight free agents.

Some notable highlights:

Best Euro PG of all time
3 time Coach of the Year across two different leagues.
Multiple titles as a player and a coach
Olympic Gold Medal
4 consecutive 50+ win seasons including back to back 60 wins
Known in Europe as Ars?ne Lupin for his ability to DEFEND and make steals

Is Dant a defensive genius? Nope but that does not mean he can't teach defense nor that he doesn't understand it's importance.

MSG makes a great point about Nash on the Suns. Who is the Knicks Nash? Short answer...we don't have one. We do not have a number one option on our team and keep shedding salary which leads to a disruption in chemistry and a loss of talent. In the NBA you need stars that can carry you each and every night. Judging Dan't on his two years with the Knicks during a rebuilding phase while ignoring his entire career which includes championship titles is just wrong.

Dant may end up a disappointment but until he has the players and team to compete and play his style of ball I will reserve my judgment and deffer to his long exemplary career.

TR1LL10N said:

Some notable highlights:

Best Euro PG of all time
3 time Coach of the Year across two different leagues.
Multiple titles as a player and a coach
Olympic Gold Medal
4 consecutive 50+ win seasons including back to back 60 wins
Known in Europe as Ars?ne Lupin for his ability to DEFEND and make steals

Is Dant a defensive genius? Nope but that does not mean he can't teach defense nor that he understands it's importance.

MSG makes a great point about Nash on the Suns. Who is the Knicks Nash? Short answer...we don't have one. We do not have a number one option on our team and keep shedding salary which leads to a disruption in chemistry and a loss of talent. In the NBA you need stars that can carry you each and every night. Judging Dan't on his two years with the Knicks during a rebuilding phase while ignoring his entire career which includes championship titles is just wrong.

Dant may end up a disappointment but until he has the players and team to compete and play his style of ball I will reserve my judgment and deffer to his long exemplary career.

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Is he still considered the best euro point guard ever now? The game was different when he played and he didnt even play in the NBA. Euro's are not known for their defense, I probably coulda been like Ron Artest if I played back then in a Euro league. I could just imagine what it would be like then if some of these Euro's are as soft as they are now...

His basketball career doesnt really have any significance to me, aside from what I already said there have been good basketball players that suck as coaches.

D'antoni had a great run in phoenix, but I always thought his teams failed to play defense at the level they were capable of. And again, I do realize that they weren't as bad as some say they were, but they had some good defenders over the years

Shawn Marion
Q-Rich
Joe Johnson
Raja Bell
Kurt Thomas

I realize thats not exactly an all nba 1st team group but his teams gave up between 102 and 104 points I think almost every year he coached them and I believe the players he had were capable of playing better defense then that despite the Suns opponents averaging more possessions them most other teams. I think his formula is effective during the regular season as we saw with the Suns, but its not a good formula for the playoffs when other teams step up their defense...hence the reason why they lost to the Spurs time and time again. The Spurs were able to get more stops then the Suns, playing great defense was very routine for them.

Im not convinced that he can teach defense, but if we sign someone that will be a leader for the whole team on defense (similar to what bumston has with garnsoft, Denver with Kmart) then we might still be aright. I dont think D'antoni is a bad coach...but i dont think hes what they hype him up to be. We obviously weren't going anywhere this year, so i woulda liked to have seen some of the young players get more minutes. I would not had picked him if I was Walsh.

MSGKnickz33 said:

Is he still considered the best euro point guard ever now? The game was different when he played and he didnt even play in the NBA. Euro's are not known for their defense, I probably coulda been like Ron Artest if I played back then in a Euro league. I could just imagine what it would be like then if some of these Euro's are as soft as they are now...

His basketball career doesnt really have any significance to me, aside from what I already said there have been good basketball players that suck as coaches.

D'antoni had a great run in phoenix, but I always thought his teams failed to play defense at the level they were capable of. And again, I do realize that they weren't as bad as some say they were, but they had some good defenders over the years

Shawn Marion
Q-Rich
Joe Johnson
Raja Bell
Kurt Thomas

I realize thats not exactly an all nba 1st team group but his teams gave up between 102 and 104 points I think almost every year he coached them and I believe the players he had were capable of playing better defense then that despite the Suns opponents averaging more possessions them most other teams. I think his formula is effective during the regular season as we saw with the Suns, but its not a good formula for the playoffs when other teams step up their defense...hence the reason why they lost to the Spurs time and time again. The Spurs were able to get more stops then the Suns, playing great defense was very routine for them.

Im not convinced that he can teach defense, but if we sign someone that will be a leader for the whole team on defense (similar to what bumston has with garnsoft, Denver with Kmart) then we might still be aright. I dont think D'antoni is a bad coach...but i dont think hes what they hype him up to be. We obviously weren't going anywhere this year, so i woulda liked to have seen some of the young players get more minutes. I would not had picked him if I was Walsh.

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The Suns are still a crappy defensive team...3rd worst in points allowed to be precise. The Knicks hold opponents to less points per game then the Suns!

TR1LL10N said:

The Suns are still a crappy defensive team...3rd worst in points allowed to be precise. The Knicks hold opponents to less points per game then the Suns!

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Yea that really is sad...thats why although Amare has been a beast on offense, and hes been alotta fun to watch (no homo), i dont think he should get signed to a max. Everyone knows Channing Frye is softer then cottonelle, but Amare has the athleticism and strength to make a difference...hes just not grimey enough. Nash continues to get worse too, he used to at least take some offensive fouls but theres no hope for him anymore. He still makes a big impact on offense, however. He could single handedly raise the value of any player on our team.

MSGKnickz33 said:

Yea that really is sad...thats why although Amare has been a beast on offense, and hes been alotta fun to watch (no homo), i dont think he should get signed to a max. Everyone knows Channing Frye is softer then cottonelle, but Amare has the athleticism and strength to make a difference...hes just not grimey enough. Nash continues to get worse too, he used to at least take some offensive fouls but theres no hope for him anymore. He still makes a big impact on offense, however. He could single handedly raise the value of any player on our team.

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This is why judging the SUns defense under Dant isn't worth much. Had it been the coach or system and not the players, they would have seen a marked turnaround once Dant was gone. For the love of god how could they be worse then the Knicks? (under Dant BTW)

Everyone should also know by now that I never supported his hiring and still don't like his coaching.

Every coach in the league is at least qualified, meaning they know basic X's and O's. Then you have coaches that see beyond that and understand player personnel and maximizing talent. This could either be done by being a good communicator, teacher, having a great staff or superb knowledge of the game.

Regardless of the players you have to work with, if you make smart decisions as a coach then you will not be called into question even if you are fired. (See Scott Skiles) The problem with Dantoni is despite the fact that we all know the team was a long shot to make the playoffs, we still expected a better showing this season. Walsh even said he expected this team to be better. Dantoni has made some very confusing and idiotic decisions during the season. Such as:

1. Starting the season with almost everyone living behind the 3pt line. I don't care if he adjusted this shortly after, he should have known this wasn't the team for that type of play during preseason.

2. Knowing immediately that the team lacked an inside presence and refused to insert Milicic for relief. Sure Darko is an underachiever but the one thing he can provide for you is defense on the block. (something the team needed)

3. DNPing Nate for so long for personal reasons. It was ok to bench Nate but for nearly a month was ridiculous. Five games would have gotten the point across just the same.

4. Hughes was a big reason why the team picked up in January. He got more playing time and really showcased his on-ball defense. Hughes gets hurt, comes back and loses his spot in the rotation even when the team was hurting defensively. I don't care Hughes was a bad shooter. As a coach you let him know what his primary role is on the court and everything should be fine.

5. Not signing a better PG and reasoning that the development of the young players were more important and then proceeding to load up on the DNPs.

6. Failing to understand offensive/defensive subbing patterns on numerous occasions.

7. Constantly failing to drawing up a decent last second play during a timeout. (This is why I question Boozers comments)

8. Allowing Gallo to be a spot 3pt shooter instead of showing him that at his height he could be even more dangerous as a mid-range and low post threat as well.

9. Playing Bender as a 3pt shooter instead of using his 7ft length as an interior presence. Also, playing him over Hill. (Disrespect)

10. Calling Hill a "bad rookie"

11. Always putting the blame on the players and using the words "fight" and "energy"

12. Loving Duhon until it was too late to save the season.

13. Having more plays in his book besides the usual pick and roll with Duhon and Lee (Once again I question Boozer's comments)

14. Using a 7-8 man rotation (even during back to back games) when the team needed more healthy bodies to pull out wins.

I could go on but I'll stop here. At the very least this team could have been slightly better defensively if used better. That could have gotten us a few more wins. In PHX we saw a fun team with explosive offense and they looked good doing it. Easy for Dantoni. Well now that he has to actually coach people will start to look at his methods and strategy and how he uses his players. Nash was the catalyst for that team and I believe Dantoni had a horrible record in games where Nash didn't play.

For me its all about ability as a coach. I know the team sucks BUT I still expect smart coaching moves and if that happens then I'll give credit. For now all I see is overrated or in the words of Kiaman "Celebrity Coach".

Edit: It doesn't matter if the team wasn't expected to conted until 2010-11, you still have to coach basketball.

TR1LL10N said:

This is why judging the SUns defense under Dant isn't worth much. Had it been the coach or system and not the players, they would have seen a marked turnaround once Dant was gone. For the love of god how could they be worse then the Knicks? (under Dant BTW)

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Well i dont think they have as good of defensive players now as they did then. I knew they would no longer be a WCF team once Marion got traded. and LMAO at steve Kerr "IF this doesnt work I'm an idiot." He actually thought trading Marion for Snack O'meal would get them a championship :lol::lol::lol:

And they had the other players i listed that could play defense, but Marion is the biggest name of all...He used to do all the dirty work for Amare. I got a good question, who's worse at defense? Lee or Amare?

Im gonna go with Lee but both of them are close to useless

nyk_nyk said:

Everyone should also know by now that I never supported his hiring and still don't like his coaching.

Every coach in the league is at least qualified, meaning they know basic X's and O's. Then you have coaches that see beyond that and understand player personnel and maximizing talent. This could either be done by being a good communicator, teacher, having a great staff or superb knowledge of the game.

Regardless of the players you have to work with, if you make smart decisions as a coach then you will not be called into question even if you are fired. (See Scott Skiles) The problem with Dantoni is despite the fact that we all know the team was a long shot to make the playoffs, we still expected a better showing this season. Walsh even said he expected this team to be better. Dantoni has made some very confusing and idiotic decisions during the season. Such as:

1. Starting the season with almost everyone living behind the 3pt line. I don't care if he adjusted this shortly after, he should have known this wasn't the team for that type of play during preseason.

2. Knowing immediately that the team lacked an inside presence and refused to insert Milicic for relief. Sure Darko is an underachiever but the one thing he can provide for you is defense on the block. (something the team needed)

3. DNPing Nate for so long for personal reasons. It was ok to bench Nate but for nearly a month was ridiculous. Five games would have gotten the point across just the same.

4. Hughes was a big reason why the team picked up in January. He got more playing time and really showcased his on-ball defense. Hughes gets hurt, comes back and loses his spot in the rotation even when the team was hurting defensively. I don't care Hughes was a bad shooter. As a coach you let him know what his primary role is on the court and everything should be fine.

5. Not signing a better PG and reasoning that the development of the young players were more important and then proceeding to load up on the DNPs.

6. Failing to understand offensive/defensive subbing patterns on numerous occasions.

7. Constantly failing to drawing up a decent last second play during a timeout. (This is why I question Boozers comments)

8. Allowing Gallo to be a spot 3pt shooter instead of showing him that at his height he could be even more dangerous as a mid-range and low post threat as well.

9. Playing Bender as a 3pt shooter instead of using his 7ft length as an interior presence. Also, playing him over Hill. (Disrespect)

10. Calling Hill a "bad rookie"

11. Always putting the blame on the players and using the words "fight" and "energy"

12. Loving Duhon until it was too late to save the season.

13. Having more plays in his book besides the usual pick and roll with Duhon and Lee (Once again I question Boozer's comments)

14. Using a 7-8 man rotation (even during back to back games) when the team needed more healthy bodies to pull out wins.

I could go on but I'll stop here. At the very least this team could have been slightly better defensively if used better. That could have gotten us a few more wins. In PHX we saw a fun team with explosive offense and they looked good doing it. Easy for Dantoni. Well now that he has to actually coach people will start to look at his methods and strategy and how he uses his players. Nash was the catalyst for that team and I believe Dantoni had a horrible record in games where Nash didn't play.

For me its all about ability as a coach. I know the team sucks BUT I still expect smart coaching moves and if that happens then I'll give credit. For now all I see is overrated or in the words of Kiaman "Celebrity Coach".

Edit: It doesn't matter if the team wasn't expected to conted until 2010-11, you still have to coach basketball.

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Alotta the points you made are on point....good post. Wasnt it his idea for Walsh to sign Duhorn? smh

To me the thing that I find most ignorant in all the d'antoni cock-lovers is that they bring those 50-win seasons he had in Phoenix.

That was a long ass time ago, give that shit up.

You gotta judge d'antoni on his most recent work as an NBA coach. And let me tell you, it's pityful....down right shameful even.

Also, don't forget about all the stupid faces and hand gestures d'antoni is known for...

He's embarrassing sometimes, I just wanna slap the hair piece off that faggits head

Of course I support D'Antoni. He is one of the best in the league. Top 5 no doubt.

jpz17 said:

Of course I support D'Antoni. He is one of the best in the league. Top 5 no doubt.

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You're going to get bashed by the rest of the site in 5.....4.....3.....2

jpz17 said:

Of course I support D'Antoni. He is one of the best in the league. Top 5 no doubt.

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WTF!! Top 5 in the league with no championship????

FAIL

TR1LL10N said:

This is why judging the SUns defense under Dant isn't worth much. Had it been the coach or system and not the players, they would have seen a marked turnaround once Dant was gone. For the love of god how could they be worse then the Knicks? (under Dant BTW)

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The Suns do allow more PPG than the Knicks by +1 (106 to 105 rounded up), however the Suns opponent FG% is wayyyyyyyyyyyy lower than the Knicks (.479 vs .451). When you look at that statistic and the fact the Suns score 9 ppg more than the Knicks then you can actually analyze and break down those PPG discrepencies.

Since they have a lower opponent FG% and a higher opponent PPG allowed that means they are allowing more possessions per game to their opponent but actually negating more of those possessions with defense.

By all means PHX defense is not good but it's still better than the Knicks, the PPG stat is a poor reflection.

Now, whether that is due to having better players or better coaching is up for debate.

smokes said:

The Suns do allow more PPG than the Knicks by +1 (106 to 105 rounded up), however the Suns opponent FG% is wayyyyyyyyyyyy lower than the Knicks (.479 vs .451). When you look at that statistic and the fact the Suns score 9 ppg more than the Knicks then you can actually analyze and break down those PPG discrepencies.

Since they have a lower opponent FG% and a higher opponent PPG allowed that means they are allowing more possessions per game to their opponent but actually negating more of those possessions with defense.

By all means PHX defense is not good but it's still better than the Knicks, the PPG stat is a poor reflection.

Now, whether that is due to having better players or better coaching is up for debate.

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Thats a fair point and one I recognize but you exagerate the FG% disparity. Further the Suns are still a high octane run and gun team...Why? because of their players! Do they still play that way with Yao instead of Amare? no. Do they play that way with Duhon instead of Nash? no. The reason the Suns staff still focuses on high octane ball over slowed down half court ball is because they don't have half court, defensive players.

The Suns point originated from Amare's comments but the real truth is our roster. We simply don't have the players capable of tight effective defense. The reason Dant had them shooting so many threes is because he knows that to win, the Knicks need to outscore their opponent because they won't get it done on the defensive end. Had the Knicks not shot so abnormally bad missing countless open shots things may have looke a bit better. Sadly our team just sucked and couldnt hit shots so he changed it up and saw some success until Duhon and Gallo fell off the map.

If we get a good squad next year and we still suck then the dude needs to go. My main position is that the Knicks would have sucked regardless of coach these last 2 years and Dant has not been given the proper players to show what his system can do. Lets give dude a chance...

To me this is honestly a stupid argument to have!


Look common sense suggest that a coach who has been handed a dead end team is not going to be able to produce a good product night in and out!


I am frusturated with the losing too, but when you having losing fans begin to look for a fall guy, but its not really anyone's fault! Our record is the result of the plan that is in place to improve the team for years to come!

I cant believe some of you cant see that!

If Dantoni gets some real All Star talent next year and we stay injury free (I mean no major injuries to major players) and this team still is a 33 win team then the argument of him sucking as a coach is valid!


It is foolish that people say he doesnt preach about Defense at all, when the reason we went on that nice run in December was because of our Defense.

I'm not saying he's Larry Brown or Chuck Daley by no means, but to have a good defensive team, you need good defensive players!


So what it comes down to is that it is too early to pass judgment (especially negative judgment) on Mike D

New New York said:

To me this is honestly a stupid argument to have!


Look common sense suggest that a coach who has been handed a dead end team is not going to be able to produce a good product night in and out!


I am frusturated with the losing too, but when you having losing fans begin to look for a fall guy, but its not really anyone's fault! Our record is the result of the plan that is in place to improve the team for years to come!

I cant believe some of you cant see that!

If Dantoni gets some real All Star talent next year and we stay injury free (I mean no major injuries to major players) and this team still is a 33 win team then the argument of him sucking as a coach is valid!


It is foolish that people say he doesnt preach about Defense at all, when the reason we went on that nice run in December was because of our Defense.

I'm not saying he's Larry Brown or Chuck Daley by no means, but to have a good defensive team, you need good defensive players!


So what it comes down to is that it is too early to pass judgment (especially negative judgment) on Mike D

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It's not necessarily that we don't recognize it, but that he could potentially be doing so much better.

Look at Toney Douglas play over the last several games, and do you not question his decision to wait til this point in the season to start using him? Especially when we had Du-nothing running the point for half a season.

Look at Jordan Hill's play in Houston and do you not question why he barely saw any minutes in New York? (and remember I believe that trade was good for us but he still could have helped us during the season).

He had yet another game-throwing failure of coaching awareness when he seemingly forgot we had a foul to give in clutch time (just like last year against portland).

There are so many questions surrounding Coach D, that it makes one concerned about 2010 and beyond. Do you want to risk giving him a season with a good or better squad to squander? Especially if we manage to grab 1 or 2 nice rookies late in the 2010 draft (there are plenty of good rookie bigs this year), do you want to see them rot on the bench for 3/4 of a season again?

Personally I'd rather send him packing, not because of our win/loss ratio, but because of the numerous mistakes, questionable decisions and overall poor coaching I have witnessed from him.

@ Trillion

I don't believe it's exaggerated. In terms of where they are in the NBA. PHX and NY are seperated by like 4 spots in terms of opponent PPG. In terms of FG% they are seperated by like 20 spots.

If you look at NY vs PHX from a defensive viewpoint, I don't see why we should be so far behind, we should be ahead if anything.

TD > Nash defensively
Chandler = Jrich defensively
Gallo = or > Grant Hill defensively
David Lee = Amare Stoudamire defensively
Jefferies when we had him > Frye defensively

IMO ofc.