Tired of needing the perfect team in order for bum coach to win

abcd

KnicksonLIN.com
I know. Antoni sucks. He has two of the best players in the NBA, and he still finds a way to screw it up. This team should be 9-5, but Antoni refuses to play a halfcourt style offense. Anthony is an isolation player. Isolation players cannot play uptempo. They need time to create their own shot. And Stoudemire is being forced to shoot 18 foot jumpers. He should be playing down low for layups and dunks.
 

KBlack25

Starter
When you factor in that MDA probably has (0) zero effect on the defense being better this year (he's not scheming anything defensively) criticizing him for any part of the Knicks play or lack of play is fair game IMHO.


"Probably" has zero effect? You are assuming. You do not know. And that is my issue.

But if you are going to sit here and blame MDA for what is going on on the court offensively, you have to at least give him some credit for what goes on the court defensively, that's only fair.

This is ESPECIALLY true when I said last year I didn't think we had good enough defensive personnel to play good defense and you (and others) said the coach can MAKE a defense play well. Now that we have the players, it's the players and not the coach? So were you lying then or are you lying now? It's one or the other, either is acceptable, but at least admit your own hypocrisy here.

All I am asking is for consistency - the fact that this team's scoring is wildly inefficient with two of the best scorers in the league is not lost on me. But to blame MDA for what is not going wrong is shortsighted and unfair, that's all.

But, if you want to criticize the way this offense is run, I stand firmly behind that. Criticize all you want, just do it in a fair manner that accurately reflects the product we see. That's all.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
STAT and Chandler switching onto PGs, while our guards try to deny/not get baptized by bigs is equally as big a problem as the offense. Teams will exploit that in the playoffs, it's ridiculous.

Stop it.


Plus, its not only that detail by itself, but it's the fact that is wasn't working in the first, but it was still employed in the 4th. Was the coaching staff watching the same game the rest of us were? How about you?
 
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nuckles2k2

Superstar
Enough stats, articles, tweets, etc.

The majority of us on here seem literate enough to go find stats on our own, and we can formulate our own opinions and viewpoints based on what we've seen.

What did YOU see when you watched that game last night? The turnovers late in the 4th, continuing to manufacture mismatches, the poor shot selections, in those moments, what were you saying?
 

KBlack25

Starter
Enough stats, articles, tweets, etc.

The majority of us on here seem literate enough to go find stats on our own, and we can formulate our own opinions and viewpoints based on what we've seen.

What did YOU see when you watched that game last night? The turnovers late in the 4th, continuing to manufacture mismatches, the poor shot selections, in those moments, what were you saying?

What was I thinking when I saw the turnovers and the poor shot selection? The same thing I've been criticizing the coach for on this thread over and over again (for the 500th time, because apparently you are not literate enough to go actually read something without reading whatever you want into it, despite your claims): the offense is, and I quote myself AGAIN, "stagnant, uninspired and just awful". The poor shot selection is ridiculous and there is no excuse for us being 23rd in the league with Melo and STAT, even without a good point guard.

But at the game last night, despite the switches, I saw some good help defense from Chandler. I saw the Suns settling for outside jumpers - I much prefer that to letting them have free reign of the paint. Again, the defense was not horrible, but this offense should never score 87 points in a game - that's the issue, and it's fair to be extremely critical of MDA.
 

zshopa

Benchwarmer
I mean its pretty simple, when the Knicks step out on the floor they have more talent than about 70% of the teams out there. We have big men, scorers, guys who can defend, block shots , come up with steals... etc.....

But I have been a Knicks fan since 93 and i have never seen a team look like a bunch of amateurs until now. After games our monkey coach says "well its gonna take time" I've been hearing its gonna take time for almost a year now, how much time does he need? why aren't there any more pic n rolls? why do Amare and Melo look uncomfortable out there. I'm not saying we need a new coach even though we desperately do. but something needs to change or this will end up being one of the most embarrassing seasons yet and with a team as stacked with stars as this Knicks team.

last night i actually tuned to the Nets Game!!!!! they look like they could romp on the knicks right now!
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
That's factually incorrect for many reasons. One, coaches have been successful without "the highest caliber players"; two we have high caliber players; and finally, how does this explain poor output by design?



This is also incorrect. 8th is a misnomer presented by Tommy D.
The true stats are:

24th in rebounds per game
17th in points allowed, and that number is 95.2 (due to TC, a player you didn't want in favor of a PG... which is an "'Antoni-ism")




*Whistle blows
You are wrong again and again are viewing things through the wrong lens.

That's a two shot foul.
I'll refer to my previous post.



Back to you.



See my post above.

No we won't see things as they're supposed to be, because 'Antoni doesn't know what's supposed to be.

Again I'll refer you to a quote of mine.



...and especially after you admitted this "unorthodox" approach ISN'T what you know as sound basketball. Do you know basketball or not?

Reading your posts looks more like you are a trapped kidnapped fan mesmerized by 'Antoni, unable to fight the effects of stockholm syndrome.

Just read and listen to yourself... were you saying those same things, holding those same views BEFORE 'Antoni got here? Or is it that you have been conditioned to believe this?


I know the losses are driving you nuts, but you've been sounding like mental patient on the forum for the last few weeks.

Seriously dude, no matter how much you want it to be all about the coach it isn't. Our players need to work it out on the court.

Yes his philosophy is in stark contrast to those of other coaches you prescribe to, but I'll say it again it doesn't mean his way of playing cannot be effective. It takes time for players to really learn MDA's system. Right now the lack of synchronicity on offense is our biggest problem. This will come, but not overnight. I'm going to remain patient.


Dude have you been watching the Knicks this year?Seriously, oh and i love the title of this thread"Tired of needing the perfect team in order for bum coach to win", brilliant.

Yes I watch every game. N I know the game enough to know when I'm seeing a lack of cohesion based on unfamiliarity (between the players and this system) and lack of cohesion based on poor coaching. MDA is an offensive genius. Again it takes time for players to really grasp intuitively what he is asking of them and have that translate to oncourt synergy. You guys need to chill. Y'all are all playing yourselves. You're gonna all have to shut up when this team learns how to play together.


--->Oh contrar. The team is complete. Any other coach would have this team sitting at 10-4. MINIMUM.

How can you say this team is complete when we've been starting a rookie and one of the worst backcourt men in the league right now for the last few games smh??? Before Shump cracked the starting 5 we had literally the worst Back court in the NBA. Complete team my ass..



We need Baron Davis. We need a Point who can run this offense. You guys sound mentally challenged hating on MDA when he doesn't have one of his main cogs.
 

iSaYughh

Starter
^^ Listen, Ron, you just don't get it and see it like it is in 2012.

When you got SIZE...those sweet BIGS you've heard so much about for so long....Well,when you got those *BIG* MEN working you and your team, ploughing across home-court...those husky BIGS that we've been salivating upon for years....the championships and glory are just going to come. They just are.

All that matters in gay orgies and basketball is SIZE. No room for anything else: we're complete, every 'hole' on this team is filled as far as we're concerned. No other 'pieces' necessary.
 

KBlack25

Starter
^^ Listen, Ron, you just don't get it and see it like it is in 2012.

When you got SIZE...those sweet BIGS you've heard so much about for so long....Well,when you got those *BIG* MEN working you and your team, ploughing across home-court...those husky BIGS that we've been salivating upon for years....the championships and glory are just going to come. They just are.

All that matters in gay orgies and basketball is SIZE. No room for anything else: we're complete, every 'hole' on this team is filled as far as we're concerned. No other 'pieces' necessary.

Major pause.
 
How can you say this team is complete when we've been starting a rookie and one of the worst backcourt men in the league right now for the last few games smh??? Before Shump cracked the starting 5 we had literally the worst Back court in the NBA. Complete team my ass..



We need Baron Davis. We need a Point who can run this offense. You guys sound mentally challenged hating on MDA when he doesn't have one of his main cogs.

No team in todays nba has everything. Along with arguably the worst back court we may have the best front court. We are not using our advantage. Instead of waiting for the team to have these perfect components that's needed by MDA, why not adjust? Use optimally what you have. Its done all the time.

This team is as talented as any in the league, IMHO. When did playing basketball become difficult? Our advantage is our size. We are not exploiting this advantage.

We dont NEED Baron Davis to win with this team. When Davis comes back and we still have the same issues what will you say then? We need Magic? Stockton? Clyde?

When Davis comes back we'll still be hoisting up 3's and long jumpers, not playing in the box. These are issues that can be corrected without BD.

The team is complete. Trust me on that...
 
"Probably" has zero effect? You are assuming. You do not know. And that is my issue.

But if you are going to sit here and blame MDA for what is going on on the court offensively, you have to at least give him some credit for what goes on the court defensively, that's only fair.

--->Not assuming at all. When in MDA's coaching history has he shown an ounce of concern about the defensive end? We've gone through this before. Nothing has changed.

This is ESPECIALLY true when I said last year I didn't think we had good enough defensive personnel to play good defense and you (and others) said the coach can MAKE a defense play well. Now that we have the players, it's the players and not the coach? So were you lying then or are you lying now? It's one or the other, either is acceptable, but at least admit your own hypocrisy here.

My contention last year was that we didnt need new players to play better defense just better coaching. I still stand by that. Last years team had so many defensive flaws it wasnt funny. If you take that team and have Hubie Brown coach them the defense is instantly better. There really is no hypocrisy...

All I am asking is for consistency - the fact that this team's scoring is wildly inefficient with two of the best scorers in the league is not lost on me. But to blame MDA for what is not going wrong is shortsighted and unfair, that's all.

But, if you want to criticize the way this offense is run, I stand firmly behind that. Criticize all you want, just do it in a fair manner that accurately reflects the product we see. That's all.

This isnt last years team. We'll struggle offensively all year if we continue with the same philosophy. We dont have the 3 pt shooters. Gallo, Williams, Felton, Billups, et all are gone.We'll win some games, but going deep in the playoffs even with the talent that we have is a pipe dream if things dont change...
 
the perfect coach wont allow carmelo to jack threes from 30 feet out with 20 seconds left on the shot clock while down against a lottery team in the fourth quarter


end of story.
 
The coach is responsible for the production of his team. If his team is consistantly failing in certain areas you have to make changes instead of forcing the issue. Blaming players, especially your 2 proven allstars is a copout.

Everyone knows Stat and Melo's game.

Stat is dangerous when he's near the rim...not the freaking 3pt line.

Melo is an all around scorer...so you can actually slow the game down for him instead of having him run down the court to jack up a threy...before any of his teammates establish some position.

EVERYONE knows their game...except this thick headed coach. He can't seem to adapt or design plays to his players strengths...

It's becoming embarrassing, tbh.
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
Yes his philosophy is in stark contrast to those of other coaches you prescribe to, but I'll say it again it doesn't mean his way of playing cannot be effective. It takes time for players to really learn MDA's system. Right now the lack of synchronicity on offense is our biggest problem. This will come, but not overnight. I'm going to remain patient.

I respect most of your positions on the subject but here is where I have to disagree with you.

Back in the Harrington and Duhon days, the offense was high powered and the team could score 100+ every game. It didn't take time for any of those guys to learn the "system".

This brings me to the next thing... what is it that's really hard to learn about this "system"?. I believe its the simplicity of it that some players like the most in fact. Why?, because it resembles playgound ball. Antoni's "system" can be effective if you have a good to great 3pt percentage for most of the season and throughout the playoffs. While this is not impossible, it is somewhat unrealistic considering there is soooo much more to scoring than just spotting up for long range shots. Listen, I get what he wants to do. I just don't think its all that effective in the long run. Antoni's logic has always been that his teams may not be able to lock down on defense but the goal is to run and try to outscore the opponent at a high rate. Once again, fun but not FUNdamentally sound in the long run.

The "system" is exciting basketball and that's about it. Not winning basketball. The current problems exist because we no longer have a team designed to play his "system" yet there has been very little adjustment. Antoni has tried to force things by turning Jorts into a shooter. While he appears to be a reliable long range shooter, you can see what's going on here. Jorts offense is 3pt FIRST and low post SECOND. This is Antoni forcing his "system" on a bunch of players that don't fit it instead of coaching based on personnel.

Antoni himself said he probably has the best frontcourt in the NBA, yet he plays outside in. Huh??? So before you talk about syncronicity, just ask yourself if this collection of players even fit the "system".
 
The "system" is exciting basketball and that's about it. Not winning basketball. The current problems exist because we no longer have a team designed to play his "system" yet there has been very little adjustment. Antoni has tried to force things by turning Jorts into a shooter. While he appears to be a reliable long range shooter, you can see what's going on here. Jorts offense is 3pt FIRST and low post SECOND. This is Antoni forcing his "system" on a bunch of players that don't fit it instead of coaching based on personnel.

Antoni himself said he probably has the best frontcourt in the NBA, yet he plays outside in. Huh??? So before you talk about syncronicity, just ask yourself if this collection of players even fit the "system".

This post is spot on...
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
No team in todays nba has everything. Along with arguably the worst back court we may have the best front court. We are not using our advantage. Instead of waiting for the team to have these perfect components that's needed by MDA, why not adjust? Use optimally what you have. Its done all the time.


Yes but anytime you have a team adjusting in multiple ways you will have ups and downs. Still don't know or want to acknowledge the ways yet, well let me count them, again for the slow kids.

1. Amare adjusting to his new body (added 20lbs of muscles apparently) and playing at his natural position as opposed to playing out of position at center.

2. Having a starting 5 that has played less than 15 games together as a unit.

3. Having said 5 have to develop chemistry while simultaneously learning the nuances of MDA's offense.

4. Having the worst back court in the league for part of this young, shortened season.

5. Having a promising rookie start at point with half (Fields until the Phoenix game where he suddenly awakened) of the worst back court in league.

All of these issues loom large when considering the current performance of the team. Whether you want to believe it or not, THEY'RE MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHETHER THIS COACH PLAYS W AN UNORTHODOX PHILOSOPHY OR NOT. Period. You guys need to wake the F up.

This team is as talented as any in the league, IMHO. When did playing basketball become difficult? Our advantage is our size. We are not exploiting this advantage.

It's difficult when you have all of the issues I've seen in watching the team going on all at once. These things cause problems. It's easy to just blame the coach. But that's not what this is about. It's very simple CATP and you and others fail to see it.

We dont NEED Baron Davis to win with this team. When Davis comes back and we still have the same issues what will you say then? We need Magic? Stockton? Clyde?

You are flat out wrong on this point. We need him more than most people think. If he comes back and plays well it will be a sight to behold. B. Davis can put up BIG numbers in this system.

He can run a pick and roll. He can drive the ball into the teeth of the D and finish or dish. He can make any pass. He's flat out the best point MDA has had since Nash. If healthy he will have a big impact. It might take a number of games, but maybe not as he's had time to take notes from the bench and he's very smart..

When Davis comes back we'll still be hoisting up 3's and long jumpers, not playing in the box. These are issues that can be corrected without BD.

The team is complete. Trust me on that...

NO WE AREN'T. Open you're eyes and see above.

I respect most of your positions on the subject but here is where I have to disagree with you.

Back in the Harrington and Duhon days, the offense was high powered and the team could score 100+ every game. It didn't take time for any of those guys to learn the "system".

This brings me to the next thing... what is it that's really hard to learn about this "system"?. I believe its the simplicity of it that some players like the most in fact. Why?, because it resembles playgound ball. Antoni's "system" can be effective if you have a good to great 3pt percentage for most of the season and throughout the playoffs. While this is not impossible, it is somewhat unrealistic considering there is soooo much more to scoring than just spotting up for long range shots. Listen, I get what he wants to do. I just don't think its all that effective in the long run. Antoni's logic has always been that his teams may not be able to lock down on defense but the goal is to run and try to outscore the opponent at a high rate. Once again, fun but not FUNdamentally sound in the long run.

The "system" is exciting basketball and that's about it. Not winning basketball. The current problems exist because we no longer have a team designed to play his "system" yet there has been very little adjustment. Antoni has tried to force things by turning Jorts into a shooter. While he appears to be a reliable long range shooter, you can see what's going on here. Jorts offense is 3pt FIRST and low post SECOND. This is Antoni forcing his "system" on a bunch of players that don't fit it instead of coaching based on personnel.

Antoni himself said he probably has the best frontcourt in the NBA, yet he plays outside in. Huh??? So before you talk about syncronicity, just ask yourself if this collection of players even fit the "system".

Duhon could run this offense. TD can't, obviously and Shumpert is learning it. Plus he's a rookie and thus given to all sorts of idiotic TO's and other mental mistakes.

Listen people, MDA's style offensively is not going to change. Get over it. I seriously wish people would just come on the forum, say you hate his style of play and keep it movin. Fact is though just because you hate it, doesn't mean it's not effective. That's like saying there should be no Japanese chef's just because you don't like ramen noodle soup and sushi. Ramen noodle soup done well can be down right awesome. MDA's O run correctly can be devastating to teams, but it's not burger n fries people. And when players are learning on the job it can look awful.

Last night I saw signs that the players were really trying to maintain the spacing this O requires. Even Melo was making the effort to maintain the discipline needed, although it seemed to pain him and ultimately lead to his having a horrible shooting night as he tried to adjust. If you noticed there were very few isos for him last night, which is good. Melo will have to buy in.

It's not a so much a question of him being able to adjust as it is him wanting/committing to making the adjustment. He will have to:

1. Not dribble so much

2. Move the ball consistently, which you started to see him doing in the Phoenix game

3. Learn to make a quick decision on the catch based on what the other teams D is presenting

4. Learn to make a quick decision on the catch based on what his defender is doing (ie playing off him or closing out quickly)

5. maintain the proper spacing

6. give up getting the ball in his sweet spots whenever he wants

Fields did all of the above well in the game against Phoenix. He is the A student of MDA's offensive class and he can thrive when this team maintains the spacing and commits to playing the coach's way. NYK NYK you're right in saying the O is simple. Getting players to trust it, trust each other and move the ball isn't. This comes with buy in, players getting to know each other on the court and proper execution, all of which takes time.

Time = T - hings I M - ust E - arn

Our guys will have to earn their mastery of this offense thru doing the above.

Melo and Shumpert will probably have the biggest adjustment to make respectively.

I think Chandler already understands his role in MDA's O frankly. His basketball IQ is extremely high and he can run a pick and roll.

Melo's IQ is as well but he has to want to make the adjustment. I think we have the right cast of personalities on this team to get him to buy in, in Chandler and Amare as well as MDA, despite what people may think.


So everyone's learning various things to different degrees on the job here. Just try to chill out and enjoy the process.

.. and most of all try to commit to identifying whats happening on the court with our players PLEASE. Cause these things are really what's affecting our team.

Go Knicks! :gony:
 
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Red

TYPE-A
Yes but anytime you have a team adjusting in multiple ways you will have ups and downs. Still don't know or want to acknowledge the ways yet, well let me count them, again for the slow kids.

1. Amare adjusting to his new body (added 20lbs of muscles apparently) and playing at his natural position as opposed to playing out of position at center.

2. Having a starting 5 that has played less than 15 games together as a unit.

3. Having said 5 have to develop chemistry while simultaneously learning the nuances of MDA's offense.

4. Having the worst back court in the league for part of this young, shortened season.

5. Having a promising rookie start at point with half (Fields until the Phoenix game where he suddenly awakened) of the worst back court in league.

All of these issues loom large when considering the current performance of the team. Whether you want to believe it or not, THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHETHER THIS COACH PLAYS W AN UNORTHODOX PHILOSOPHY OR NOT. Period. You guys need to wake the F up.



It's difficult when you have all of the issues I've seen in watching the team going on all at once. These things cause problems. It's easy to just blame the coach. But that's not what this is about. It's very simple CATP and you others fail to see it.



You are flat out wrong on this point. We need him more than most people think. If he comes back and plays well it will be a sight to behold. B. Davis can put up BIG numbers in this system.

He can run a pick and roll. He can drive the ball into the teeth of the D and finish or dish. He can make any pass. He's flat out the best point MDA has had since Nash. If healthy he will have a big impact. It might take a number of games, but maybe not as he's had time to take notes from the bench and he's very smart..



NO WE AREN'T. Open you're eyes and see above.



Duhon could run this offense. TD can't, obviously and Shumpert is learning it. Plus he's a rookie and thus given to all sorts of idiotic TO's and other mental mistakes.

Listen people, MDA's style offensively is not going to change. Get over it. I seriously wish people would just come on the forum, say you hate his style of play and keep it movin. Fact is though just because you hate it, doesn't mean it's not effective. That's like saying there should be no Japanese chef's just because you don't like ramen noodle soup and sushi. Ramen noodle soup done well can be down right awesome. MDA's O run correctly can be devastating to teams, but it's not burger n fries people. And when players are learning on the job it can look awful.

Last night I saw signs that the players were really trying to maintain the spacing this O requires. Even Melo was making the effort to maintain the discipline needed, although it seemed to pain him and ultimately lead to his having a horrible shooting night as he tried to adjust. If you noticed there were very few isos for him last night, which is good. Melo will have to buy in.

It's not a so much a question of him being able to adjust as it is him wanting/committing to making the adjustment. He will have to:

1. Not dribble so much

2. Move the ball consistently, which you started to see him doing in the Phoenix game

3. Learn to make a quick decision on the catch based on what the other teams D is presenting

4. Learn to make a quick decision on the catch based on what his defender is doing (ie playing off him or closing out quickly)

5. maintain the proper spacing

6. give up getting the ball in his sweet spots whenever he wants

Fields did all of the above well in the game against Phoenix. He is the A student of MDA's offensive class and he can thrive when this team maintains the spacing and commits to playing the coach's way. NYK NYK you're right in saying the O is simple. Getting players to trust it, trust each other and move the ball isn't. This comes with buy in, players getting to know each other on the court and proper execution, all of which takes time.

Time = T - hings I - M - ust E - arn

Our guys will have to earn their mastery of this offense thru doing the above.

Melo and Shumpert will probably have the biggest adjustment to make respectively.

I think Chandler already understands his role in MDA's O frankly. His basketball IQ is extremely high and he can run a pick and roll.

Melo's IQ is as well but he has to want to make the adjustment. I think we have the right cast of personalities on this team to get him to buy in, in Chandler and Amare as well as MDA, despite what people may think.


So everyone's learning various things to different degrees on the job here. Just try to chill out and enjoy the process.

.. and most of all try to commit to identifying whats happening on the court with our players PLEASE. Cause these things are really what's affecting our team.

Go Knicks! :gony:

Thanks Ron for proving my point! :thumbsup:

Just for shits and giggles, please explain these last three things, please. I promise all I'll say is I hate this system and keep it moving.

1. Why did we hoist 35 three's a few games ago?

2. Why did we get swept last playoffs?

3. Why has Jorts shot more threes than anything?

Please, seriously, enlighten us... please.

BTW, I think it's clear, our leader, and veterans, have not, and will not "but in to" this system...IMO. youngsters maybe, Stat is conditoned so maybe, but those who are students of the game and have been taught fundamentals (Melo, Billups before) are not buying it. They know better.
 
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