What is He????

Food for thought... Nate Robinson is 5'9" generously. He is probably the most athletic player on the roster. Previously I noticed (and others) the NYK's record was recently better w/o N8. That said N8's potential is still greater than Duhon's. Now what's this: Nate isn't a PG, undisciplined, ball-hog shit? I mean, he is limited (like everyone) but what position did he/ his agent/ the FO think he was suited for? Yes he shoots, but the position he was in ALLOWED him to. Yes his assist/turn ratio isn't the best, but again his job was to score. The whole inconsistent, can't hit big shots thing- again this n!gga is 5'9" and playing shooting guard, after being beat-up and carrying the team in some games why is he the "go to guy" all of a sudden? Just because he is one of the best shooters we have does that mean he plays SG by default? I mean best by ability not statistically. And we know he's too small to post up so... all he has is driving and hitting jumpers (sounds like a PG to me). So let's see: Mike D'antoni is a star coach, he has a need for PG, he has a athletic, fast, 5'9" slam dunk champ with experience who is clearly (at least) better than Duhon (so is Douglas) who can shoot and slash (draw fouls) and he can't make this guy into a valuable PG? Didn't he transform Nash? Don't we need a point? WTF was Nate gonna be a SG at 5'9" when all he lacked was discipline, passing/ vision, and some support to build confidence- the same thing that Duhon is being given! Sure his D isn't the best- but neither is Duhon's. I guess I can't blame D'antoni for this one either... I mean Jeffries (was a SF) now he plays C, Lee is a PF now he plays C, Chandler was SF now he is a SG. Gallo is 6'10" (taller than Lee) but he's a SF and Nate is a 5'9" SG.... WTF is happening? BTW is it me, or do we really look bad AFTER one of these fake trade rumors surface- don't know why, but pay attention and look back, you'll see- we're talking about getting someone- and we do worse any opinions? D'ant can't make N8 better than Duhon?...smh

He is a combo guard or undersized SG... spark plug off the bench and nothing more. He will never be a starting PG in this league...not the right skill set or mentality to be a floor general on a nightly basis. I like Nate but thems the facts.

He IS ....

probably not getting resigned by the Knicks we aren't good enough to fully utilize his talents unless we do get Lebron.

TR1LL10N said:

He is a combo guard or undersized SG... spark plug off the bench and nothing more. He will never be a starting PG in this league...not the right skill set or mentality to be a floor general on a nightly basis. I like Nate but thems the facts.

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Nate was probably 4' nothing in HIGHSCHOOL- are you telling me he had no clue PG might be suited for him? The fact is N8 was "the spark plug" by default b/c he can shoot. Well the fact is EVERYONE (except Jeffries who used to be able to) can shoot. Gallo can shoot off the bench, Harrington can also, should they be labled "spark plugs" too? Skill sets? WTF skills... you mean pick and pop/roll or passing the least of his worries? D'antoni "on of the best coaches" couldn't teach him what was needed. I mean seriously why do we have a 5'9" player making mad dough (no hate) on our squad and he ISNT PLAYING PG????????? Mentallity would make sense if Duhons wasn't so inept. But if he can "earn" his big minutes with his play I'll take a brain-dead N8 anyday. Shit, if N8 had the minutes and attention (and a pass) that Duhon got for this long maybe we wouldn't be still searching for a PG and maybe we would be better by now. But no... we signed an expensive spark plug to play out of position. N8 was forced to play as a spark off the bench- now force him to play PG. Almost every player on this team was forced to adapt- even Duhon who is failing. Stop with the rose colored glasses, realize he can't do it and give N8 or Douglas a shot before its too late. What else is he? Sure he can score off the bench but like a friend of mine said... you could drive a car with your feet- it doesn't make it a good idea. My point... make N8 into a PG like he was supposed to be and show me some star coaching if you can. Stop wasting my time and my teams salary with excuses for losing.

Nate was probably 4' nothing in HIGHSCHOOL- are you telling me he had no clue PG might be suited for him?

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He played football and can only play professional sports because he is an athletic freak. He was drafted as a combo guard, knows he is a combo guard and will remain a combo guard.

The fact is N8 was "the spark plug" by default b/c he can shoot.

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It's not about just shooting. A spark plug is an energy player who can come into a game and immediately go to work without being freshly warmedup or acclimated to the game. Instant offense and instant energy is why he is considered a spark plug.

Skill sets?

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Yes like good court vision, ability to set up his teammates consistently, defending the other teams starter, running an offense and being disciplined with the rock...you know a true PG.

I mean seriously why do we have a 5'9" player making mad dough (no hate) on our squad and he ISNT PLAYING PG

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1st. he probably won't be here next year.
2nd. He is there to provide instant offense, make game winners and sell seats.

Mentallity would make sense if Duhons wasn't so inept. But if he can "earn" his big minutes with his play I'll take a brain-dead N8 anyday.

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Duhon is a below average PG but he is a PG! N8 is not...period! We need an upgrade at PG but try as we might n8 will never be a PG.

Shit, if N8 had the minutes and attention (and a pass) that Duhon got for this long maybe we wouldn't be still searching for a PG and maybe we would be better by now

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This is not true, n8 has been in the league years now...he is not a rookie. He has had ample practices, teammate injuries and games to show he can be a consistent PG. He hasn't! Let's not forget the defensive mismatches teams can exploit with him on the floor nightly.

Listen, you can't make every player play the way you would want just because their size dictates they shouldn't play any other position. N8 because of his size will always be a niche player and NEVER a consistent starter on a winning team at PG or any other position. Again, I like n8 but I also know his limitations. Think of him as the bball equivalent of a DH in baseball. He serves a purpose, can wing games but will not be our starting PG on a nightly basis.

No matter how great his leaping ability or how strong he is for his size, Robinson's height will always work against him. In particular, his court vision can be bothered by bigger opposing guards, and he is vulnerable to being shot over by the man he is defending.

Robinson isn't a true point guard, splitting time on the ball with junior Will Conroy, but he can't be used as anything other than a point guard in the NBA. He averages around two and a half assists per game. Thus, he'll have to look to create for his teammates more and improve his court vision.

Despite all the easy shots he creates, Robinson is still shooting around 43%, poor for a college player. Inconsistency is a major problem; he was a non-factor during this year's non-conference play and even in Pac-10 play he's been hold under double-digits three times thus far.

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http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Nate-Robinson-67/

That was his draft profile before coming to the NBA. Even in college he only averaged 4.5 assists per game. Lets remember he was drafted really late and has overachieved due to his athletic ability and energy. Again, just because a player is short does not make him a PG.

What gets to me is how a handful of people still want duhon to start over Nate. it's mindboggling.


Nate was NEVER given the chance to play PG the way that duhound was. It's a damn shame really. If our bum-ass coach would have put Nate in as full-time PG last year, Nate would be putting up all-star numbers by now.

The main reason Duhon is starting PG over N8 and Douglas...

Red said:

D'ant can't make N8 better than Duhon?

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Duhon gives better head:2cents:

SLY1984 said:

What gets to me is how a handful of people still want duhon to start over Nate. it's mindboggling.


Nate was NEVER given the chance to play PG the way that duhound was. It's a damn shame really. If our bum-ass coach would have put Nate in as full-time PG last year, Nate would be putting up all-star numbers by now.

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Just about every player on the Knicks is better than Duhon...but sadly Duhon is our best PG. Gallo is better than Duhon...should he start at PG? Of course not! Wanna know why? He isn't a PG...neither is Nate!

Being under 6 feet tall does not qualify one to run the point on a nightly basis.

Yo Trill... this is what you said about N8 (on my phone sorry): "This is not true, n8 has been in the league years now...he is not a rookie. He has had ample practices, teammate injuries and games to show he can be a consistent PG. He hasn't! Let's not forget the defensive mismatches teams can exploit with him on the floor nightly. Listen, you can't make every player play the way you would want just because their size dictates they shouldn't play any other position. N8 because of his size will always be a niche player and NEVER a consistent starter on a winning team at PG or any other position. Again, I like n8 but I also know his limitations..." Besides the "size" comment- can't the same be said for Duhon? He's had ample time and is a failure- even WORSE than N8 so what's up? Plus Duhon had the luxury of being coached by "star" D'Antoni over a year and what? Didn't D'Antoni try and make players play what HE felt was their right position based on his perceptions- that's a bit contrary right? The whole defensive ineptitude is pointless considering Duhon is also so.... point being Duhon had more of a shot (in this system) at PG than N8. Who in your opinion is better? Given our system, our supposed need to "put butts in seats" etc... who is better? Like I said you can't give D'Antoni another pass after featuring Duhon exclusively at PG yet he stinks and N8 is right there (and Douglas), especially when his rep. is partly due to developing Nash. You mean to tell me we spent money on a undersized SG who is limited defensively, to be a limited spark plug, although we needed a PG and could have used N8 as an asset last year? Who thought Duhon would surfice? We brought N8 back for that? SMH... right now anything is better than Duhon even Hughes. Put your star coaches feet to the fire... anyone can compete with star talent- real good coaches can w/ minimal talent. Or is D'antoni over-rated?

TR1LL10N said:

Just about every player on the Knicks is better than Duhon...but sadly Duhon is our best PG. Gallo is better than Duhon...should he start at PG? Of course not! Wanna know why? He isn't a PG...neither is Nate!

Being under 6 feet tall does not qualify one to run the point on a nightly basis.

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Your logic is immensely flawed. You make no damn sense. Just give up.

Red said:

Yo Trill... this is what you said about N8 (on my phone sorry): "This is not true, n8 has been in the league years now...he is not a rookie. He has had ample practices, teammate injuries and games to show he can be a consistent PG. He hasn't! Let's not forget the defensive mismatches teams can exploit with him on the floor nightly. Listen, you can't make every player play the way you would want just because their size dictates they shouldn't play any other position. N8 because of his size will always be a niche player and NEVER a consistent starter on a winning team at PG or any other position. Again, I like n8 but I also know his limitations..." Besides the "size" comment- can't the same be said for Duhon? He's had ample time and is a failure- even WORSE than N8 so what's up? Plus Duhon had the luxury of being coached by "star" D'Antoni over a year and what? Didn't D'Antoni try and make players play what HE felt was their right position based on his perceptions- that's a bit contrary right? The whole defensive ineptitude is pointless considering Duhon is also so.... point being Duhon had more of a shot (in this system) at PG than N8. Who in your opinion is better? Given our system, our supposed need to "put butts in seats" etc... who is better? Like I said you can't give D'Antoni another pass after featuring Duhon exclusively at PG yet he stinks and N8 is right there (and Douglas), especially when his rep. is partly due to developing Nash. You mean to tell me we spent money on a undersized SG who is limited defensively, to be a limited spark plug, although we needed a PG and could have used N8 as an asset last year? Who thought Duhon would surfice? We brought N8 back for that? SMH... right now anything is better than Duhon even Hughes. Put your star coaches feet to the fire... anyone can compete with star talent- real good coaches can w/ minimal talent. Or is D'antoni over-rated?

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good points...

Damn...I hate to defend Dudu because I don't like him and I think he is a backup PG and not a starter but:

Besides the "size" comment- can't the same be said for Duhon? He's had ample time and is a failure- even WORSE than N8 so what's up?

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Dant turned Duhon from a 3rd string PG riding the bench into a SERVICEABLE PG who has had some great stretches as a Knick. His assist to turnover ratio is on par for a starter and his size is decent. On occasion he can hit a big shot and work well with Lee in the pick n roll. All that said we still need an upgrade at point but N8 isn't the guy.

Didn't D'Antoni try and make players play what HE felt was their right position based on his perceptions- that's a bit contrary right?

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I'm not sure what you mean...you can't stick a square peg in a round hole. Undersized bigs can sometimes play effectively out of position but a PG needs certain skills and attributes to be an effective floor general on a consistent basis. Nates size is not really my issue...it's his mentality, passing and floor leadership ability that is lacking.

he whole defensive ineptitude is pointless considering Duhon is also

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They both lack defensive intensity which is probably 70% of what makes a good defender. The other 30% is natural skill, size, speed and strength. Duhon while far from a good defender did play quite well against Kobe the other night...something N8 could never do no matter how hard he wanted it. Simply put they are both bad but Duhons size gives him the edge IMO. You may say N8 speed makes up for it but I just don't see it happening consistently.

Who in your opinion is better?

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Nate is a better overall player, better athlete, better shooter and is more clutch...Duhon is a better PG...sadly. I like N8, I am not a hater, never been one...I am pragmatic and know basketball. The dude is simply not a PG that can run an offense nightly let alone one as complex as Dant's.

our supposed need to "put butts in seats" etc... who is better?

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Sure Nate has fans and draws excitement, sells seats but nothing sells more seats than winning! N8 can't and won't be a starting PG on a winning team...I will go all in on that! The year nate starts at PG for a winning team on a nightly basis is the year I will retire my KO.com account.

Like I said you can't give D'Antoni another pass after featuring Duhon exclusively at PG yet he stinks and N8 is right there (and Douglas), especially when his rep. is partly due to developing Nash.

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Dan't has no choice...sadly Duhon is the best PG we have now. (hughes if given a chance would be better) Maybe Douglas is better given time but that is a gamble as well. Dan't is not a miracle worker but he did take a third string perennial bench warmer and turned him into a serviceable starter. I would take Duhon as a backup PG though...he can definitely contribute some productive minutes coming off the bench behind a good PG.

ou mean to tell me we spent money on a undersized SG who is limited defensively, to be a limited spark plug, although we needed a PG and could have used N8 as an asset last year?

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We signed him to a 1 year deal at like 4 mil. (too lazy to look up actual salary) That is not a lot of money nor was it a long term commitment. N8 is most likely gone next year and will fit in on a contender who needs energy off the bench.

right now anything is better than Duhon even Hughes.

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Well Hughes is a different story all together. IMO, Hughes is a natural SG but can fill in at PG. If given the opportunity he would probably be better at PG than Duhon but we are talking Nate aren't we?

Put your star coaches feet to the fire... anyone can compete with star talent- real good coaches can w/ minimal talent. Or is D'antoni over-rated?

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I think Dant is getting the most out of this squad. I also think the Suns could have won a title had they not run into the Spurs dynasty. Dant has adapted his system and has the Knicks playing their best ball in years. Is he overrated? I don't think so but time will tell as we upgrade our talent and start making runs in the playoffs. Dan't has def mad some mistakes and is not perfect but he certainly is an elite coach.

SLY1984 said:

Your logic is immensely flawed. You make no damn sense. Just give up.

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Right because you brought any logic to the table or even begun to refute my points. Stick to what your good at...game threads and sweating corny posters.

EDIT**BTW this comment comes from someone claiming N8 would be an all star PG if just given the chance! SMFH! Talk about flawed logic!

SLY1984 said:

good points...

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Good points?

1. Nate has been coached for just as long as Duhon...point one shredded.
2. We did not spend "all this money" we gave the dude a 1 year minimum offer if I am not mistaken...the swag and buzz he will generate in the slamdunk contest will make up for his salary cost plus some.

Go ahead dude...it's clear you wan't to take a run at me..stop quoting other posters and form a coherent argument and I will be glad to shred you.

TR1LL10N said:

Good points?

1. Nate has been coached for just as long as Duhon...point one shredded.
2. We did not spend "all this money" we gave the dude a 1 year minimum offer if I am not mistaken...the swag and buzz he will generate in the slamdunk contest will make up for his salary cost plus some.

Go ahead dude...it's clear you wan't to take a run at me..stop quoting other posters and form a coherent argument and I will be glad to shred you.

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4 million dollars per is by far not the minimum....we gave him a qualifying offer and he took it because he wanted to be a Knick. He was a restricted free agent.

Nate is far better overall.

You keep saying his court vision sucks, and his point guard skills are sub-par. Watch tape of him at UW!!!!! Its not like you have proof in the NBA...D'Antoni has never put him in a position to carry the team from start to finish at the PG position. Nate is a POINT GUARD, he just happens to be able to light it up as well.

Proof? How bout this...:

John Hollinger of ESPN uses a formula to assess a player's true Turnover ratio (= to (Turnover x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers])

So I took Nate's rating of an 8.7 and compared it to the TO ratio of Chris Paul (consensus best PG in the NBA)

Paul scores a 9... .3 more true turnovers than Robinson.

Granted Robinson does play less, but thats EXACTLY it. He has never been the starting PG. I understand where you are coming from in a way because Nate does make some horrible decisions. But on a team looking at a 17-24 record with no lottery pick and no foreseeable option at Pg would it really hurt to throw a guy in there who has a player efficiency rating of around 20?!?! The dude plays 20 minutes a night!! Give me a break. I think its an unfair assessment of the guy's talent until he is actually given an opportunity to prove himself.


But seriously. Watch the Washington film.

Trill, you're a dick.
Always crying and bitching when someone agrees with someone who doesn't share your opinion.

Fact 1.
Everyone in the NBA is serviceable. Sergio Rodriguez can put up better numbers than Duhon, but he rides in the bench in Sac-town. They're in the NBA for a reason.

Fact 2.
Nate is better than Duhon, even defensively. Duhon's defense has been overrated as a Knickerbocker. He's flat footed, slow, doesnt overpower his opponent...sucks at rotating, and gets beat off the dribble when his man is driving. When Nate tries, he's solid. Offensively, Nate shits on Duhon.

I'm not even a Nate Robinson fan, but this is pathetic.

Fact 3
Metrocard has big balls.

Trill, you're a dick.
Always crying and bitching when someone agrees with someone who doesn't share your opinion.

Fact 1.
Everyone in the NBA is serviceable. Sergio Rodriguez can put up better numbers than Duhon, but he rides in the bench in Sac-town. They're in the NBA for a reason.

Fact 2.
Nate is better than Duhon, even defensively. Duhon's defense has been overrated as a Knickerbocker. He's flat footed, slow, doesnt overpower his opponent...sucks at rotating, and gets beat off the dribble when his man is driving. When Nate tries, he's solid. Offensively, Nate shits on Duhon.

I'm not even a Nate Robinson fan, but this is pathetic.

Fact 3
Metrocard has big balls.

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I didn't cry or bitch about anything...that's your Modus Oprendi my Pakistani chiren. :thumbsup: Your response is like your overweight mother in a milkshake shop...you both are grasping at straws. I refuted a troll who provided zero substance, I challenged him with facts and he ran to another thread to cry for an undersized SG to become our starting PG instead of having a reasonable debate in this thread...notice how I had a reasonable discussion with Red...it's because we were talking the actual game of basketball and the Knicks unlike other scrubs who can only muster a weak ass troll without facts or an argument...trolls get beaten back under the bridge where they belong.

What happened to you having me on ignore...couldn't resist huh? Couldn't take it that I ignored all your pathetic attempts at baiting me...making all your false declarations of victory again when I was schooling your bitchass internet crew for the umpteenth time evidenced by the sad thread you created to jock your number one sycophant...okay little man, you got my attention...I'll throw you the ball so you can stop crying to coach that I ain't giving you any playing time.

Fact 1:
Edit**thought you were talking about Rudy Fernandez... never mind. That said, your point still is not relevant for this thread. Comparing another player who could potentially be serviceable if given a chance means nothing when talking about Duhon and Nate.

Fact 2: Nate is way more of a defensive liability than Duhon and thats a fact. Duhon put it on Kobe the other day something Nate could never do. Name one game or player where Nate has put the clamps down...now show me why he doesn't do it consistently. I'll save you the time...he is an undersized SG who has never consistently committed to D. Duhon is far from a spectacular defender but he is not an automatic liability like Nate.

Fact 3: Nate was never a PG, not even in college...even then he played off the ball and split minutes with some never-be college scrub. He averaged 2.5 assists in college. I even showed his draft scouting report...everyone knew then that he is a combo guard, an undersized SG and not a true PG. With his athleticism and scoring ability do you really think he would have slid like he did in the draft had any scouts thought he could reliably play PG?

Fact 4: Nate does indeed shit on Duhon offensively and I never argued that. I am simply stating the fact that Duhon is a true PG albeit below average but Nate is not a PG at all. Nate cannot run our offense or any other offense consistently. He is a niche player...a spark plug..a tide changer...not a starting PG!

I'm not even a Nate Robinson fan, but this is pathetic

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Yet here you are defending him and talking him up like he can run point. Methinks you just inserted yourself in this debate because you wanted my attention. Now THAT is pathetic!

Metrocard has big balls.

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Only when juxtaposed with your prepubescent female frame. :teeth:

In conclusion you did not effectively refute my points, you brought zero facts to the table and got owned once again by the champ...chump. If you want to turn this into another war be my guest...I enjoy sharpening my verbal sword on your weak psyche. If you want to have an actual basketball discussion or debate without calling me pathetic or jumping in to troll I will also be happy to oblige. The proverbial ball is in your court now.

NYKnuniversity said:

4 million dollars per is by far not the minimum....we gave him a qualifying offer and he took it because he wanted to be a Knick. He was a restricted free agent.

Nate is far better overall.

You keep saying his court vision sucks, and his point guard skills are sub-par. Watch tape of him at UW!!!!! Its not like you have proof in the NBA...D'Antoni has never put him in a position to carry the team from start to finish at the PG position. Nate is a POINT GUARD, he just happens to be able to light it up as well.

Proof? How bout this...:

John Hollinger of ESPN uses a formula to assess a player's true Turnover ratio (= to (Turnover x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers])

So I took Nate's rating of an 8.7 and compared it to the TO ratio of Chris Paul (consensus best PG in the NBA)

Paul scores a 9... .3 more true turnovers than Robinson.

Granted Robinson does play less, but thats EXACTLY it. He has never been the starting PG. I understand where you are coming from in a way because Nate does make some horrible decisions. But on a team looking at a 17-24 record with no lottery pick and no foreseeable option at Pg would it really hurt to throw a guy in there who has a player efficiency rating of around 20?!?! The dude plays 20 minutes a night!! Give me a break. I think its an unfair assessment of the guy's talent until he is actually given an opportunity to prove himself.


But seriously. Watch the Washington film.

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Right it was a one year qualifying offer and nothing more...hardly "all that money" like some claim. Further I never said Nate doesn't have a place on this team..I just contend he is not a true PG nor a consistent starter. The energy, ability to take a game over and star power more than justifies that contract.


He wasn't a PG in college either...he split minutes and mostly played off the ball.

As to the assist to turnover ratio...Duhon more than doubles him in that category so I'm not sure why you bring that up.

Chris Duhon

AST 6.3
A/TO 3.49
MIN 33.5
GP 44

Nate Robinson 23 0 22.7 12.6 0.7 1.7 2.4 3.4 0.78 0.17 1.9 1.81 2.3 0.0

http://espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=nyk

Again, this is not an endorsement of Duhon..we need an upgrade. I just don't think Nate can run the point on a nightly basis. Nate will always be a niche player who comes off the bench. If he was >6'4" he would be an elite wingman but his size and inability to be a floor general will always relegate him to an energy player.

It's been well documented on this board that I have, in the past, supported D'Antoni as well as Duhon. But right now, I don't understand what's going on.

Duhon is in the slump to end all slumps. He dished the ball well last night, but this guy poses no threat shooting right now. Honestly, give any of us on here 18 shots from 3, I bet we'd all make at least 1...Duhon 0 for his last 18 from 3? That's bad on a whole other level.

Now I've been okay with D'Antoni benching Nate for 14 games, and I was okay with him benching Hughes. But he has to bench Duhon, or at least slide him back a bit. Give Hughes a start, give Nate a start, hell give Toney freakin' Douglas a start. But Duhon just isn't getting it done besides making a few nice passes a night.

I understand playing him if he gives us a better chance to win, but fact is right now he doesn't. Does Nate? I don't know, maybe. The fact is I don't think Nate is really a PG. Yeah, he makes some nice passes here and there, and pushes the ball. But last night, coming down court on the break, with numbers, he pulled up for a three (and missed)...that's not a shot I want my PG taking. He came down another time, him v. 3 T'Wolves and popped a three, and though it went in, it's just not a bright shot to take, especially with no one under to rebound.

Ultimately I think Nate is a smaller, less good version of AI. I don't think I trust him at PG, but I say why not give him a shot? The Duhon-thing isn't working right now, and I doubt Duhon will be a Knick next year (Robinson has a better chance of that).

Honestly, though, I'd like to see what Toney Douglas has. He looked good early, and is signed longer than both Nate and Duhon...let's give him a shot, what do we have to lose?