How to build a winner for 2011-2012. My summer offseason plan of attack

mafra

Legend
The New York Knicks payroll for the upcoming 2011-2012 season is $64,972,189... and this accounts for only 9 players who are currently under contract on this roster... (50 million of our cap reserved for our "big-3"):

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

Carmelo Anthony, Amar'e Stoudemire, Chauncey Billups, Ronny Turiaf, Ronaldo Balkman, Toney Douglas, Bill Walker, Andy Rautins & Landry Fields.

We just selected 2 players in the draft (Iman Shumpert and Josh Harrellson). We're also considering recalling 7-footer Jerome Jordan. We definitely want to bring back free agent Shawne Williams (and possible Anthony Carter, Shelden Williams & Derrick Brown). I'm going to go out on a limb here and say we let Jared Jeffries walk...

H-O-W-E-V-E-R... OBVIOUSLY, the salary cap aint going up. If we're lucky the cap is somewhere between 65 and 70 million. I wouldn't count on it though. Sounds like Stern is pushing for a cap slightly beneath where we are right now:

"In a session Tuesday that NBA commissioner David Stern had labeled critical to the parties' ability to get a new labor contract in place by the current one's June 30 expiration, the owners revealed more specifics from their latest proposal than the union did. One of those was the "flex" salary cap in which a targeted team-payroll amount -- $62 million, Stern said -- would be bracketed by a minimum and a maximum, both still undetermined even in the owners' proposal."

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/06/21/asch-labor-negotiations/index.html

Anyway, someone else better suited to talk about this stuff (a captologist, if you will) can expound more on the details of what a hard or flex cap means, as well as what sort of possible exemptions will/do/may/might exist that allows the free-spending Dolan to create more space for our beloved Knickerbockers.

But, suffice to say, our Knicks are stuck between a rock and a water tower. Let's just assume we keep 1 of these 3 "bigs" - Jordan, Williams, Harrellson; we resign Shawne and, of course, we keep Shumpert. I'll be conservative and guess we sign these 3 players for a combined 2.6 million?

I suspect Mr. Balkman (and his 1.675 mil) is a goner. So, 9-1=8 (+3) gives us 11 players for slightly over 65 million. BUT... a roster like this does what exactly?

Billups
Shumpert
Anthony
Stoudemire
Turiaf

Douglas, Fields, Shawne Williams, Walker, A BIG, Rautins

Along with this cast... we would probably bring in a guy like B-Wells, J-Alexander, take a gamble on a guy like Vernon Goodridge, and some other creative manuevering... STILL, this isnt good enough. Trades have to be made, and we pray exemptions are available! BUT, most likely, this is what our roster will look like next year.

TRADES: The problem here... Our tradeable assets (Douglas, Fields, Walker) make about 1 million (give or take). Even if we toss in a Balkman, it still barely adds up to 3 million. SO, what sort of players are out there... whom we could afford to deal for and could be on the block? I would suggest... here's some players I would look at if I were GM:

Ramon Sessions (4.2 mil), Dahntay Jones (2.7 mil), Luke Ridnour (3.6 mil), Goran Dragic (2.1 mil), DJ Augustine (3.2 mil), Omri Casspi (1.3 mil), Robin Lopez (2.8 mil), Eric Maynor (1.5 mil), Erson Ilyasova (2.5 mil), Carlos Delfino (3.5 mil), Tony Allen (3.1 mil), Will Bynum (3.5).

FREE AGENCY: The problem here... We just don't have a hole lot of cash available to throw around this summer. Anyway, let's look at some free agents I would target if I were GM:

Samuel Dalembert, Joel Pryzbilla, Jeff Foster, Kenyon Martin, Reggie Evans, Grant Hill, Jason Richardson, Michael Redd, Jamal Crawford, Josh Powell, Kwame Brown, Kurth Thomas, DeShawn Stevenson, J.R. Smith, Tayshaun Prince, Al Thornton, Vladmir Radmanovic, Josh McRoberts, TJ Ford, Sebastian Telfair, Shane Battier, Carl Landry, Tony Battie, Ji Jianlain.

I'm not even going to bother/tease and look at restricted free agents (like DeAndre Jordan & Marc Gasol). I doubt we'll be able to pry away an impact player that way, plus we need a few pieces... not just one. BUT, if I had my way.. I would bring in Jordan or Gasol, and that would be it!


NEEDS: What are our needs? I see it this way:

-Starting Center
-Backup PG
-Wing defender
-Shooter
-SIZE

This is what I would focus on this offseason. How do I bring in 5 players who fill these roles?

Looks like I can trade for a backup PG, while I can sign a starting C, along with a wing defender... And I should be able to find a shooter/scorer by taking a chance on somebody (ala Shawne Williams).

Solution: The time has come to wrap it up. What to do? What would you do? What would I do?

First, the easiest spot to fill: find a shooter/scorer. There has to be somebody from this mix that will sign here on the cheap... have a shot to win. Who from this bunch, huh? We have legit options, risks, and plan-b types:

JR Smith, Crawford, Richardson, Sessions, Hill, Radmanovic, Ilyasova, Casspi, Michael Redd, Alexander, Wells.

Get me one of these guys.

Second, let's find a starting C shall we. Sign Samuel Dalembert, Marc Gasol or DeAndre Jordan. Problem solved! OK, wont be that easy. I would then look at Jeff Foster or Joel Przybilla. If this doesn't work out... then look to beef up PF and check out guys like K-Mart, Evans, Landry, Thomas. Last resort is Jianlain, McRoberts, Brown, Thornton.

Now we move on the a wing defender. Easy! Stevenson, Battier, Battie or Dahntay Jones.

You want some size? Jordan or Harrellson, Foster or Evans, along with my Jianlain does the trick.

Lastly, let's go shopping for a backup PG. Sessions or Ridnour works for me.

FINALLY... What do you do with our current players? Trade anyone? Billups, Douglas, Fields, Walker? Interesting.

Imagine if we could just sign DeAndre Jordan, Battier & Battie, then trade for Ridnour! CHAMPIONSHIP!

But this can't happen. Even with exemptions, we could offer 1 midlevel to a player like Battier... But I'm going to guess we look for a starting C here. So Samuel Dalembert will be a main target.

NOW, I'm going to be conservative and try to think small, b/c we all can shoot at the moon and play fantasy... but that wont happen.

My guess... We bring in a guy like Pryzbilla or Foster; Roll the dice and hope a Jianlain, Redd, Wells works out. We will trade Douglas for a PG, or sign a Telfair; and we'll convince a Richardson, Hill, Battier, Battie, Evans, Landry, Kmart or something to sign for some sort of exemption.

We do have the new BIG-3, so we'll attract some ring-seeking vet, or NY-loving "spotlight" player to sign aboard.

How would this look like:

Billups
Crawford/Jason Richardson/Grant Hill/JR Smith (1 of these)
Anthony
Amar'e
Pryzbilla/Dalembert (1 of these)

Ridnour, Fields, Shawne, Landry or Evans, Turiaf, Redd or Wells, Foster.

I know. I prefer:

Billups
Crawford
Anthony
Amar'e
Gasol

Battier, Battie... blah blah blah. Wont happen tho.

SO... let's say our 2011 roster looks like:

Billups
Shumpert
Anthony
Amar'e
Pryzbilla

I think we trade Douglas for Ridnour or Dragic. Something like that.
I think we resign Shawne.
Turiaf.
Fields.

This will probably be the first 9-man rotation.

I hope we look at a Foster, but we probably settle on bringing back Jordan for C #3.

Anthony Carter or a S-Telfair on bench with C #3 as PG #3. He'll spend a lot of time with Rautins.

I think Balkman and Walker are dealt as well.

I think we take a chance with a Wells, Redd or Jianlain.

Finally, I do hope a Hill or Richardson sign aboard, moving Shumpert out of the rotation (until he earns it).

That's it folks!
 
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Very comprehensive. The main takeaway, I believe, is that some smart, small scale moves can really give us a strong, championship contending team around the nucleus that already exists. Oh, how different our thought processes would be if we'd only gotten to see an entire playoff series of a healthy Billups and Amare.
 
The New York Knicks payroll for the upcoming 2011-2012 season is $64,972,189... and this accounts for only 9 players who are currently under contract on this roster... (50 million of our cap reserved for our "big-3"):

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/new_york.htm

Carmelo Anthony, Amar'e Stoudemire, Chauncey Billups, Ronny Turiaf, Ronaldo Balkman, Toney Douglas, Bill Walker, Andy Rautins & Landry Fields.

We just selected 2 players in the draft (Iman Shumpert and Josh Harrellson). We're also considering recalling 7-footer Jerome Jordan. We definitely want to bring back free agent Shawne Williams (and possible Anthony Carter, Shelden Williams & Derrick Brown). I'm going to go out on a limb here and say we let Jared Jeffries walk...

H-O-W-E-V-E-R... OBVIOUSLY, the salary cap aint going up. If we're lucky the cap is somewhere between 65 and 70 million. I wouldn't count on it though. Sounds like Stern is pushing for a cap slightly beneath where we are right now:

"In a session Tuesday that NBA commissioner David Stern had labeled critical to the parties' ability to get a new labor contract in place by the current one's June 30 expiration, the owners revealed more specifics from their latest proposal than the union did. One of those was the "flex" salary cap in which a targeted team-payroll amount -- $62 million, Stern said -- would be bracketed by a minimum and a maximum, both still undetermined even in the owners' proposal."

http://www.nba.com/2011/news/06/21/asch-labor-negotiations/index.html

Anyway, someone else better suited to talk about this stuff (a captologist, if you will) can expound more on the details of what a hard or flex cap means, as well as what sort of possible exemptions will/do/may/might exist that allows the free-spending Dolan to create more space for our beloved Knickerbockers.

But, suffice to say, our Knicks are stuck between a rock and a water tower. Let's just assume we keep 1 of these 3 "bigs" - Jordan, Williams, Harrellson; we resign Shawne and, of course, we keep Shumpert. I'll be conservative and guess we sign these 3 players for a combined 2.6 million?

I suspect Mr. Balkman (and his 1.675 mil) is a goner. So, 9-1=8 (+3) gives us 11 players for slightly over 65 million. BUT... a roster like this does what exactly?

Billups
Shumpert
Anthony
Stoudemire
Turiaf

Douglas, Fields, Shawne Williams, Walker, A BIG, Rautins

Along with this cast... we would probably bring in a guy like B-Wells, J-Alexander, take a gamble on a guy like Vernon Goodridge, and some other creative manuevering... STILL, this isnt good enough. Trades have to be made, and we pray exemptions are available! BUT, most likely, this is what our roster will look like next year.

TRADES: The problem here... Our tradeable assets (Douglas, Fields, Walker) make about 1 million (give or take). Even if we toss in a Balkman, it still barely adds up to 3 million. SO, what sort of players are out there... whom we could afford to deal for and could be on the block? I would suggest... here's some players I would look at if I were GM:

Ramon Sessions (4.2 mil), Dahntay Jones (2.7 mil), Luke Ridnour (3.6 mil), Goran Dragic (2.1 mil), DJ Augustine (3.2 mil), Omri Casspi (1.3 mil), Robin Lopez (2.8 mil), Eric Maynor (1.5 mil), Erson Ilyasova (2.5 mil), Carlos Delfino (3.5 mil), Tony Allen (3.1 mil), Will Bynum (3.5).

FREE AGENCY: The problem here... We just don't have a hole lot of cash available to throw around this summer. Anyway, let's look at some free agents I would target if I were GM:

Samuel Dalembert, Joel Pryzbilla, Jeff Foster, Kenyon Martin, Reggie Evans, Grant Hill, Jason Richardson, Michael Redd, Jamal Crawford, Josh Powell, Kwame Brown, Kurth Thomas, DeShawn Stevenson, J.R. Smith, Tayshaun Prince, Al Thornton, Vladmir Radmanovic, Josh McRoberts, TJ Ford, Sebastian Telfair, Shane Battier, Carl Landry, Tony Battie, Ji Jianlain.

I'm not even going to bother/tease and look at restricted free agents (like DeAndre Jordan & Marc Gasol). I doubt we'll be able to pry away an impact player that way, plus we need a few pieces... not just one. BUT, if I had my way.. I would bring in Jordan or Gasol, and that would be it!


NEEDS: What are our needs? I see it this way:

-Starting Center
-Backup PG
-Wing defender
-Shooter
-SIZE

This is what I would focus on this offseason. How do I bring in 5 players who fill these roles?

Looks like I can trade for a backup PG, while I can sign a starting C, along with a wing defender... And I should be able to find a shooter/scorer by taking a chance on somebody (ala Shawne Williams).

Solution: The time has come to wrap it up. What to do? What would you do? What would I do?

First, the easiest spot to fill: find a shooter/scorer. There has to be somebody from this mix that will sign here on the cheap... have a shot to win. Who from this bunch, huh? We have legit options, risks, and plan-b types:

JR Smith, Crawford, Richardson, Sessions, Hill, Radmanovic, Ilyasova, Casspi, Michael Redd, Alexander, Wells.

Get me one of these guys.

Second, let's find a starting C shall we. Sign Samuel Dalembert, Marc Gasol or DeAndre Jordan. Problem solved! OK, wont be that easy. I would then look at Jeff Foster or Joel Przybilla. If this doesn't work out... then look to beef up PF and check out guys like K-Mart, Evans, Landry, Thomas. Last resort is Jianlain, McRoberts, Brown, Thornton.

Now we move on the a wing defender. Easy! Stevenson, Battier, Battie or Dahntay Jones.

You want some size? Jordan or Harrellson, Foster or Evans, along with my Jianlain does the trick.

Lastly, let's go shopping for a backup PG. Sessions or Ridnour works for me.

FINALLY... What do you do with our current players? Trade anyone? Billups, Douglas, Fields, Walker? Interesting.

Imagine if we could just sign DeAndre Jordan, Battier & Battie, then trade for Ridnour! CHAMPIONSHIP!

But this can't happen. Even with exemptions, we could offer 1 midlevel to a player like Battier... But I'm going to guess we look for a starting C here. So Samuel Dalembert will be a main target.

NOW, I'm going to be conservative and try to think small, b/c we all can shoot at the moon and play fantasy... but that wont happen.

My guess... We bring in a guy like Pryzbilla or Foster; Roll the dice and hope a Jianlain, Redd, Wells works out. We will trade Douglas for a PG, or sign a Telfair; and we'll convince a Richardson, Hill, Battier, Battie, Evans, Landry, Kmart or something to sign for some sort of exemption.

We do have the new BIG-3, so we'll attract some ring-seeking vet, or NY-loving "spotlight" player to sign aboard.

How would this look like:

Billups
Crawford/Jason Richardson/Grant Hill/JR Smith (1 of these)
Anthony
Amar'e
Pryzbilla/Dalembert (1 of these)

Ridnour, Fields, Shawne, Landry or Evans, Turiaf, Redd or Wells, Foster.

I know. I prefer:

Billups
Crawford
Anthony
Amar'e
Gasol

Battier, Battie... blah blah blah. Wont happen tho.

SO... let's say our 2011 roster looks like:

Billups
Shumpert
Anthony
Amar'e
Pryzbilla

I think we trade Douglas for Ridnour or Dragic. Something like that.
I think we resign Shawne.
Turiaf.
Fields.

This will probably be the first 9-man rotation.

I hope we look at a Foster, but we probably settle on bringing back Jordan for C #3.

Anthony Carter or a S-Telfair on bench with C #3 as PG #3. He'll spend a lot of time with Rautins.

I think Balkman and Walker are dealt as well.

I think we take a chance with a Wells, Redd or Jianlain.

Finally, I do hope a Hill or Richardson sign aboard, moving Shumpert out of the rotation (until he earns it).

That's it folks!
good post and i agree 100% shane battier would be a nice pickup
 

finestrg

Rotation player
Players I'd take a real good look out now to round out the squad:

• Ben Hansbrough - I honestly believe he could be a good PG in the NBA. I think he's every bit the player Jimmer Fredette is. Didn't get a chance to continue proving it in workouts before the draft because of an ankle injury. Supposedly he worked out for the Nets right before the draft and looked good though. The ankle's now 100% or close to it. Could be the extra PG we seek. At the very least, he's a better player than Andy Rautins. With his shooting, scrappy toughness and underrated PG skills, he'd be a real nice option to complement Shumpert. No guarantee Shumpert ever really develops that outside shot -- he never showed it in his 3 years at Georgia Tech. Having Hansbrough next to Shumpert wouldn't magnify Shumpert's weaknesses all that much and allow him to do the things he does best. I'm shocked we haven't shown any interest in Hansbrough up to this point to be perfectly honest. This guy's got "D'Antoni player" written all over him. I'd also like the Knicks to look at Curtis Jerrells, Curtis Stinson and Sherron Collins.

• Tim Abromaitis - I think he could be a very good 3 pt shooting specialist in the NBA. His 3 pt shot is really a thing of beauty -- good form with a lightning quick release. Does some other things well too -- at 6'8" he rebounds a little, puts it on the floor and shows a good IQ out on the court. He could take over the Shawne Williams role if Williams isn't retained (so far I haven't heard anything on Williams coming back). Hansbrough and Abromaitis together would go a long way in giving D'Antoni some quality outside shooters he really needs.

• Joe Alexander or DeShawn Sims - I like Sims a tad more myself, but they're both fine players. Big upside for both guys. We already had Alexander in for a workout. What are we waiting for?? Ink him up now before someone else does. Take the chance. I believe he worked out for the Nuggets right after working out for us and really impressed Denver. Just because he didn't work out in Milwaukee doesn't mean he can't make it in the NBA. Earlier on for Milwaukee, Alexander actually played well. I remember him having a handful of good games..Then he got hurt. When he returned, Scott Skiles never gave him the same opportunity.. Either guy could come in and backup either STAT or Melo..I'd much rather have either of these guys over Jared Jeffries, I can tell you that.

• Dwayne Jones - I'm not solid on Josh Harrellson at all. Jerome Jordan I think is skilled enough to make the club and be part of the rotation; Harrellson I'm not sure about though. Everything I've read about him is saying he's unskilled and out of shape..I'd bring in one more center for training camp just to see. Jones is a very capable center. Nothing flashy but wherever he's been and gotten ample playing time he's produced, especially in the rebounding column. His senior year at St. Joseph's he averaged a double-double: 10.1 pts/11.6 rebs/3 blks. In 2009-10 for the Austin Toros in the NBDL he averaged 17.6 pts/16.1 rebounds/1.8 blocks. And just last year in China he put up 18 pts/15.8 rebs/1.6 blks. Rebounding still could be a problem for this team. Amar'e, for all he does well, is just not a good rebounder. Simple as that. We're gonna need a center to cover for him. This guy Jones definitely addresses the rebounding problem in a big way. I'm not handing this dude Harrellson anything yet. I say bring in Dwayne Jones and let Harrellson, Jordan and Jones all compete against one another in training camp. The best 2 make the team and compete for mins at the 5 with Turiaf. I could see Dwayne Jones doing the same type of things for us that Tyson Chandler & Brendan Haywood do for Dallas.

• Matt Bouldin, Sylven Landesberg and AD Vassallo should all get a look as an extra shooting guard.

I'd also think about this rumored trade with Sacramento involving Toney Douglas. Maybe for Omri Casspi or Donte Greene. Maybe we can also get Sac to throw in Isaiah Thomas too (the small lefty PG from Washington/pick #60 from last Thursday's draft). That really wouldn't be bad value in exchange for Douglas, when you think about it.
 
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Crazy⑧s

Evacuee
Another ball tearing thread from Mafra.

Nice and thorough, no stone left unturned.

I think I'll withhold my own version of a revamp based around our needs until the CBA has announced its terms.

I did just read that the Knicks are only offering a 1 year deal to any vets in the off-season, so fattening up our most important position, center, looks like it won't go a long way past Turiaf, Harrelson and perhaps Jerome Jordan.

http://network.yardbarker.com/nba/article_external/are_the_knicks_eyeing_kwame_brown/5248120

Donnie's officially stepped down, what can we possibly do to form a team that Miami and Chicago have to worry about?
 

mafra

Legend
Crazy⑧s;183138 said:
Another ball tearing thread from Mafra.

Nice and thorough, no stone left unturned.

I think I'll withhold my own version of a revamp based around our needs until the CBA has announced its terms.

I did just read that the Knicks are only offering a 1 year deal to any vets in the off-season, so fattening up our most important position, center, looks like it won't go a long way past Turiaf, Harrelson and perhaps Jerome Jordan.

http://network.yardbarker.com/nba/article_external/are_the_knicks_eyeing_kwame_brown/5248120

Donnie's officially stepped down, what can we possibly do to form a team that Miami and Chicago have to worry about?

What a great Dolan pic. Now that's classic!

Yeah, I assume we'll try to buy a Troy Murphy of my-YI-gin-Jianlian-a'ling. And also try to convince a Kwame Brown, Kurt Thomas, Muhammed, Foster, Gray type to come for a ride and see what happens.

I could live with Brown, Foster, Murphy.
 

Red

TYPE-A
Ew..ew.. I know....

Draft Brook Lopez!

Oh that's right... we can easily find a center.. no problem.
:shrug:
 

Crazy⑧s

Evacuee
What a great Dolan pic. Now that's classic!

Yeah, I assume we'll try to buy a Troy Murphy of my-YI-gin-Jianlian-a'ling. And also try to convince a Kwame Brown, Kurt Thomas, Muhammed, Foster, Gray type to come for a ride and see what happens.

I could live with Brown, Foster, Murphy.

The things we're forced to live with, eh? Sigh.

Who would have ever thought it would come to this at the start of last season?

I'd like to know what you and others would attempt with Billups' expiring. Needless to say, it's our one chip as we chase a 'chip. That wanting to know is, of course, with the exclusion of Chris Paul, who I don't think we can afford to obtain considering our comparative salary scape against Miami's. We'll be fighting tooth and nail with them for EC supremacy, hopefully.

Kwame Brown, btw, would be my choice out of those players. He smells, but he's as close to what we need as we could possibly obtain.
 

Red

TYPE-A
Crazy⑧s;183213 said:
The things we're forced to live with, eh? Sigh.

Who would have ever thought it would come to this at the start of last season?

I'd like to know what you and others would attempt with Billups' expiring. Needless to say, it's our one chip as we chase a 'chip. That wanting to know is, of course, with the exclusion of Chris Paul, who I don't think we can afford to obtain considering our comparative salary scape against Miami's. We'll be fighting tooth and nail with them for EC supremacy, hopefully.

Kwame Brown, btw, would be my choice out of those players. He smells, but he's as close to what we need as we could possibly obtain.

The best plan as much risk is involved is:

Acquire as many draft picks as possible... a bevy! Why?

They're cheap
We can go over whatever cap with them
They're tradable (maybe useful in moving up)

That's our only answer. CP3 WILL NOT FIX our rebounding/defensive problems

I bet you're saying that's assuming a quality BIG is in the draft...

My respone if that's what you're thinking is

That's the next best thing. A stable of 2-3 inexperienced bigs is better than being stuck not affording any or over paying a Przybilla or a Dalembert

Sure the take time but waiting season after season hoping for a miracle isn't gonna work

That's our answer... mad draft picks.

Your thoughts
Yep.

Just what we need...a soft center who can't rebound...SIGN ME UP

/sarcasm

Soft? That's because he's a NET! He's better than ANY center we've had since Camby/Ewing

Don't fool yourself. Amare and co. Would have this dude doing what he needs to do with us. Trust that.

You are the only one who won't acknowledge how we f*cked up by not taking him. This thread, our situation says different.
 

Red

TYPE-A
I can't believe this. Haven't we learned anything watching Mia lose?

Watching Mem and Dallas win?

Watching Bos lose without a big.

Watcing La win with Bigs!

Watching us struggle without bigs.

How many instances do we need to see? Really.

Basketball is a big mans game. Size wins. who's disputing this. Its not the end all gaurentee but without it its futile!

Not even the best, Jordan or Kobe could win without a valid big contribution. Not a Kareem or Wilt but a valid servicible big.

All this year after year of garbage with no big... and some still think its not needed. That he will fall in our laps. Its crazy!

Get a f*cking big!!!!!!! Guards are numerous! Bigs are the hardest to find, quality ones.

Like in football, why is the left tackle the highest paid? He's the most important and the least praised. In foot ball yu start with the off/def line if you really want to compete.

In baseball its pitching. You could have all the arods you want- without pitching its useless!

We can have all the Melos and Amares we can afford, still won't trump a team with quality bigs.

F*CKING MIA HAD WADE JAMES AND BOSH AND still lost, for Crying out loud! They LOST! THEY HAVE NO BIGS!

Dal does and won!
Lakers do and were going for the repeat
Bos did and won and were 1 game away
Spurs bigs!
Mem... f*cking Mem... competed... Bigs!
Detroit... quality bigs!
Bigs bigs bigs bigs!!!

And if we can't afford one it should not be because we are targeting a guard with no plan for a big smh.

Then we should acquire as many picks as possible until we find a big or we are DOOMED!
 

KBlack25

Starter
Soft? That's because he's a NET! He's better than ANY center we've had since Camby/Ewing

Don't fool yourself. Amare and co. Would have this dude doing what he needs to do with us. Trust that.

You are the only one who won't acknowledge how we f*cked up by not taking him. This thread, our situation says different.

LMFAO

The guy grabbed TEN PERCENT of the total rebounds available last year while he was on the floor.

By comparison, the "SOFT" Chris Bosh grabbed 13.6%...on a team you just slammed for not having enough big bodies in the paint as the reason they lost. The guy we slam for being not good at rebounding on this board, Amare Stoudemire grabbed 12.7%. Meaning what? Chris Bosh and Amare Stoudemire were more effective rebounders last year than Brook Lopez.

How about an effective big, like Tyson Chandler last year...a guy who you say was instrumental in Dallas winning? He grabbed 19.7% of total rebounds available last year...Tyson Chandler was TWICE AS EFFECTIVE as Brook Lopez.

I may be the only one saying it, but facts are facts. Brook Lopez is an awful rebounder that people like you on this board overrate on a consistent basis. He would not be helpful, just another soft center who can't rebound.


Lopez is soft because he's a Net? What does that even mean? Kris Humphries isn't soft, he's a Net. Deron Williams isn't soft, he's a Net. Brook Lopez is soft b/c he's a 7'2" guy who can't rebound and is SOFT.
 
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Red

TYPE-A
LMFAO

The guy grabbed TEN PERCENT of the total rebounds available last year while he was on the floor.

By comparison, the "SOFT" Chris Bosh grabbed 13.6%...on a team you just slammed for not having enough big bodies in the paint as the reason they lost. The guy we slam for being not good at rebounding on this board, Amare Stoudemire grabbed 12.7%. Meaning what? Chris Bosh and Amare Stoudemire were more effective rebounders last year than Brook Lopez.

How about an effective big, like Tyson Chandler last year...a guy who you say was instrumental in Dallas winning? He grabbed 19.7% of total rebounds available last year...Tyson Chandler was TWICE AS EFFECTIVE as Brook Lopez.

I may be the only one saying it, but facts are facts. Brook Lopez is an awful rebounder that people like you on this board overrate on a consistent basis. He would not be helpful, just another soft center who can't rebound.


Lopez is soft because he's a Net? What does that even mean? Kris Humphries isn't soft, he's a Net. Deron Williams isn't soft, he's a Net. Brook Lopez is soft b/c he's a 7'2" guy who can't rebound and is SOFT.

Yada yada yada....

Lopez's numbers are RELATIVE TO many factors you have no way of quantifying.

His team
His coach
Their system
His playing time

Are just a few. Please don't bother trying to convince me of how everything would be exactly the same in a different situation on a different team. Its useless dribble.

Bigs take time. Bigs take coaching. Something wemaybe could have accomplished and avoided this conversation all together. Please stop.

Not to mention what COULD'VE BEEN as a result of having said big. Trades, accomplishments, non draft moves etc...

Its too much and we'll never know what coul've came about.

What we do know is we are writing our very on Twilight Zone script.

The one where we keep running through a house openning doors, only to find ourselves right back where we started wondering what's going on.

I'll tell you what's going on...

We and every team is best when incorporating BIGS. SEE Knicks with Ewing or Camby.

Then see Knicks without Ewing and Camby. Do the math.
 

KBlack25

Starter
Yada yada yada....

Lopez's numbers are RELATIVE TO many factors you have no way of quantifying.

His team
His coach
Their system
His playing time

Are just a few. Please don't bother trying to convince me of how everything would be exactly the same in a different situation on a different team. Its useless dribble.

Bigs take time. Bigs take coaching. Something wemaybe could have accomplished and avoided this conversation all together. Please stop.

Not to mention what COULD'VE BEEN as a result of having said big. Trades, accomplishments, non draft moves etc...

Its too much and we'll never know what coul've came about.

What we do know is we are writing our very on Twilight Zone script.

The one where we keep running through a house openning doors, only to find ourselves right back where we started wondering what's going on.

I'll tell you what's going on...

We and every team is best when incorporating BIGS. SEE Knicks with Ewing or Camby.

Then see Knicks without Ewing and Camby. Do the math.

Blah blah blah blah...

You're right...we don't know what would have come...

So don't bother telling me how things would be different for him were he here...it's useless DRIVEL (if you are going to insult my writing, at least use the right word...drivel).

So how do you know things wouldn't be the same? How do you know they would be different if we drafted him? How do you know he wouldn't still be the soft center that he currently is on the Nets?

I'm going by the only facts we have:

That right now, in this moment, Lopez is a soft-center with little to no rebounding capabilities.

Everything else you posit is mere speculation, unprovable...so explain to me: If I can't say how things would be similar if we drafted him b/c it's too speculative, how can you say in the same breath things would be entirely different and that's not too speculative?

Lopez's numbers aren't just low.

They are ABYSMAL for a starting center in this league.

I'm not saying we don't need a center. I'm saying Brook Lopez wouldn't have solved our problems.
 
Can we just trade Balkman back to Denver for Mozgov :) , I realy wouldn't mind getting the "Gov" back.

We also should be looking into doing whatever we need to do to try and pry D.Howard away from Orlando!

On the cheap look at Kwami Brown or Joel Prezbilla imo.
 

Oldtimer

Rotation player
Moving Forward

Quality comments by mafra starting this thread but I think we are wasting our time speculating on what we may do with cap space going forward. We do not know what the new CBA will bring and nothing will happen until there is a new CBA..

The following canniballizes my post in another thread.

The current CBA expires Thursday June 30th. Thereafter we will certainly have a lock out until there is a new CBA. Although trades are possible until July 1st, I do not expect anything to happen until there is a new CBA.

Shumpert and Harrelson have been drafted, but not signed. Perhaps if they are signed before the end of June, the current CBA will control what they get paid going forward. I doubt that they will be signed because any new CBA is hardly likely to increase rookie scale contracts. We want to have as much flexibility as possible as we go into a new CBA and are therefore unlikely to increase current commitments that will carry over and extend beyond the 2011 season.

Other than Shumpert and Harrelson who will be ours under whatever terms will apply in a new CBA, and with the exceptions of Melo, Amare', Douglas and Balkman, we have no commitments beyond the 2011season.

Though its not promising as to increased cap space, we do not know what the new CBA might bring and, therefore, what actual cap space or cap exceptions will be available for 2011 or 2012. Under the current CBA, as mafra notes, we are essentially out of cap space and would have to rely on mid-level exceptions, a combination of veteran minimums and minimum salaries or trades to sign new players.

It makes sense to do nothing, or as little as possible, until we see what kind of room we will have under a new CBA. I expect a lock out that will last a couple of months at least. It will be hard to keep this site humming when all the action is the talk of a bunch of posturing suits. We are already speculating on Balkman's attire on the bench.
 

Red

TYPE-A
Blah blah blah blah...

You're right...we don't know what would have come...

So don't bother telling me how things would be different for him were he here...it's useless DRIVEL (if you are going to insult my writing, at least use the right word...drivel).

So how do you know things wouldn't be the same? How do you know they would be different if we drafted him? How do you know he wouldn't still be the soft center that he currently is on the Nets?

I'm going by the only facts we have:

That right now, in this moment, Lopez is a soft-center with little to no rebounding capabilities.

Everything else you posit is mere speculation, unprovable...so explain to me: If I can't say how things would be similar if we drafted him b/c it's too speculative, how can you say in the same breath things would be entirely different and that's not too speculative?

Lopez's numbers aren't just low.

They are ABYSMAL for a starting center in this league.

I'm not saying we don't need a center. I'm saying Brook Lopez wouldn't have solved our problems.

Word?

Tue 11/30

Brook Lopez drops 36pts on 44% shooting versus the New York Knicks. Throws in 6 rebounds, one block (and change), while hitting 84+% from the line.

Sat 02/12

Lopez drops 19 & 4 against us in 34 minutes.

Wed 03/30

Brook drops 26 & 9 on 52% shooting. Threw in a block and 3 assists to go along with that.

Fri 04/08

He drops another double digit score on us with 27. Granted he only had 2 rebounds but shot 64% in 32 minutes of action.

Do I need to contrast this with what our center(s) dropped? Don't think so.

_____________________________________​

Again, Lopez isn't the end all be all, and quite frankly the larger point is that a serviceable big is paramount when building a winner.

We don't talk about a second year player and say "what has he done"- we talk about his potential. At 7'0 240lbs he avg. 15.5 & 7 in college- more than serviceable, plenty of potential.

As I've said the center position takes longer to develop in comparison to others. Hence why he should of and could of been a project when we decided to rebuild. And as a rookie his acquisition can be looked at from a financially strategic perspective. Its better to acquire a big body and mold him through the draft and reduce the risk and cost involved by doing so via trade or free agency.

When "building a team" is decided, and considering the historic time table as well as abundant costs of this vital cog, it becomes apparent that a team should take advantage if said player becomes available in the draft, if only for size and depth.

At 6'10 220 Gallo avg. 13 & 3 in Italy. So who was softer? And what does soft have to do with anything? Is this boxing or MMA?

The fact remains that in player valuation the bigger picture suggests Gallinari types are more attainable than Lopez types. Added Lopez types become more in demand, more expensive, and less available over time. They appreciate whether by demand, performance, or lack of supply.

When we agree that "we need a center"- we agree that "we had access to a center". Thats all. Dribble or drivel, it all equates to mistakes in valuation.

The same mistake you make by presenting this "soft" angle. What's soft is our defense along with Jared Jeffries. What's soft is our ability to recognize we had a fine center available two years ago and realize now we are still paying for that mistake. And what's "hard" and another unmentioned fact is the "hard" Gallo broke his back early and played in 28 games, was replaced, and we still are having this discussion.

I wonder why?:shrug:
 

KBlack25

Starter
WORD?

11-30-2010 Brook Lopez drops a staggering 36 with FIVE REBOUNDS (!!) in a Nets loss v. a Knicks team who can't rebound.

12-03-2010 Brook Lopez lights up the board again with THIRTEEN points and an (oh my goodness) TWO rebounds in 38 minutes in a Nets loss v. a Charlotte team with no center.

12-22-2010 Brook Lopez ripping up the paint dropping 16 points with FOUR REBOUNDS, unbelievable performance!

01-07-2011 Brook Lopez does the unthinkable, in 28 minutes dropping 14 points with an unreal 4 rebounds...

01-14-2011 + 01-15-2011 Brook Lopez shows the West Coast how it's done, where in two games he gets just under 70ish total points, and, wait for it...NINE REBOUNDS TOTAL over TWO GAMES!

I could go on and on but you get the point...what does Lopez give us...a scorer (at best) who can't rebound. This team doesn't need scorers. It needs rebounders.


Exactly...

We have a soft center in Jared Jeffries. Nobody said Jeffries was great.

And here we are.

Still looking for a center.

So what would Lopez do? We'd be in the same situation. Looking for a center. With a soft center who can't rebound.

This has nothing to do with Gallinari. Gallinari might be soft, he also doesn't play center. You can survive with a soft swingman. You can't survive with a center who can't rebound. Which is what Lopez is.
 
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mafra

Legend
Crazy⑧s;183213 said:
The things we're forced to live with, eh? Sigh.

Who would have ever thought it would come to this at the start of last season?

I'd like to know what you and others would attempt with Billups' expiring. Needless to say, it's our one chip as we chase a 'chip. That wanting to know is, of course, with the exclusion of Chris Paul, who I don't think we can afford to obtain considering our comparative salary scape against Miami's. We'll be fighting tooth and nail with them for EC supremacy, hopefully.

Kwame Brown, btw, would be my choice out of those players. He smells, but he's as close to what we need as we could possibly obtain.

Billups is a winner. He is respected. He has enough credibility that he can decide who gets the ball: Carmelo or Stoudemire. Remember the end of game 2? Douglas failed to give Amar'e a look down the stretch... Any rookie, or young player, will struggle to make the correct decisions. I want the ball in Billups' hands at the end of the game. He knows what to do with the rock.

Billups will benefit from the lockout. This will be a shortened season (ala 1999). The extra rest will help his body and mind, and allow him to get even more comfortable running D'antoni's offense.

Finally, his contract will come in handy if/when we need to make a mid-season move. It's not like there's a salary-dump somewhere we could exchange him for. Chris Kaman work for you? Not like last year when DAL scooped up Tyson Chandler. AND, if we do dump him then we don't have a PG.

Sure. I think the option to let him walk was something we thought about. But the only "attractive" free agents on the market, whom we could use, were of the restricted variety. Marc Gasol and DeAndre Jordan (too bad Walsh didn't buy an extra pick for this cat) are sort of still under the control of their respective clubs. So why risk letting Billups walk and then have 2 holes if we couldn't pry one of those bigs away.

Here's the plan, I assume:

1- You have to preserve 2012 flexibility because the free agents are too good. Chances are Deron or Paul or Howard or something will join forces with our dynamic duo. The 2011 f/a class is just not as good. PLUS, Knicks really do not have much cap space this year.

Trade Douglas for Ridnour; spend cash for Jordan or Gasol; convince a Crawford or Richardson to take less money. Is this a much better route? Who knows.

2- Knicks realize a lockout is coming and this will actually benefit NY, b/c of Amar'e and Billups. It hurt us in the draft b/c a few players decided to stay in school, meaning we really didn't have much talent left when our pick arrived... But otherwise all is good.

If there is a lockout, the good news is what will happen in free agency. There will be a frenzy when f/a begins. We can only hope this makes it more likely that players accept 1-yr deals. Knicks play at MSG in NYC, which is a good thing. We have plenty of minutes for any PF/C, shooter, PG who want playing time; AND, best of all, we offer a chance to win with our BIG-3, along with a player-friendly system.

I THINK THE GOAL... the roll of the dice... is that we should be able to field a viable rotation going this direction... as good as if we decided to spend our capital this offseason. Too much uncertainty now, and not enough room to work with under the cap.

We will hope to lure a starting C, who will take less to come here. Kwame Brown, Aaron Gray or Nazr Muhammed probably targets we'll look at for a starter. If this doesn't work, Knicks will turn there attention to safety in numbers and look at Foster, Kurt Thomas, T-Battie, Troy Murphy, Josh McRoberts, Reggie Evans type.

IF we can get 1 or 2 from the above group, add this to Turiaf and either Jorts or Jerome Jordan... We should be fine.

If it were me... Murphy or McRoberts would thrive in D'ant's system. Rebound and shoot the 3. Add a bruiser with that: A Kurt Thomas or Jeff Foster. I'm cool with that. Who is going to give any of these 4 more than a 1 yr deal?

THEN... bring in the next Shawne Williams. IS this B-Wells or M-Redd? Who knows. But find that diamond-in-the-rough again.

THEN... try to convinve a J-Crawford, Grant Hill, Jason Richards or Shane Battier to come to NY for a chance to win a title. They've earned enough money in their careers... Can we nab a vet like this?

Finally... I would think long and hard about trading a Douglas &/or Fields... I would look for a backup PG who can run the pick and roll (Luke Ridnour) or a Lebron stopper (Dahntay Jones). If I felt I was better off keeping those 2 young players b/c the alternative doesn't make us significantly better... would think long and hard about signing a DeShaun Stevenson. Sure, there is baggage, but he proved he could get in Lebron's head and he definitely did his job defending the guy.


Billups (Douglas, Shumpert)
Grant Hill (Fields, Rautins)
Carmelo (Shawne Williams, Wells)
Amar'e (Troy Murphy)
Brown (Turiaf, Jordan or Jorts)

This could be our 15-man roster. Which 12 would be active? Well, Rautins and Jordan or Jorts would be 2 inactive. Wells probably starts off inactive as well.

We probably wont have enough cash to sign so many free agents... So maybe we have to make some deals. This means what? Turiaf gets dealt? Balkman for sure. Bill Walker likely. But Walker-Balkman combine for less than 3 mil. Toss in Turiaf, and there's 7 mil we could probably shed.

That money could be used to resign Williams, grab Murphy and Wells, with barely enough left over the comvince Brown and Hill to come here.

We'll see.

SIDE NOTE: Would you deal Turiaf for Jeff Foster and Josh McRoberts? They have Hibbert and need to free up cap space to make a run at David West. We send Turiaf, Balkman & Walker. We get back two 7-footers, both of whom have expiring contracts. THEN, we can use (we hope) mid-level and vet exemptions (?) to sign a Brown & Grant Hill. Or just sign 1 guy (Crawford or Richardson)?

Billups
Crawford
Melo
Amar'e
Brown

Foster, McRoberts & Jerome Jordan give us size.
Douglas, Fields, Williams & Shumpert provide some offense off the bench.

I think this would be the dream scenario, but would take some charity on the part of Jamaal & Kwame.
 
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