OFFICIAL: ANTI-D'Antoni Thread

KBlack25

Starter
Didnt STAT say no one taught him defense until coach Gentry? At which point he was 22-23-24. I'm sure most of these kids went through just about the same thing. But my analogy doesnt apply. There is absolutely no getting through to you.

An NBA coach shouldn't have to teach you to stay in front of your man...That is basic level basketball, like brushing your teeth is basic hygeniene, and is the responsibility of early bball programs. To me it's like saying a Calculus teacher is a bad teacher b/c he didn't teach you to add properly.
 
An NBA coach shouldn't have to teach you to stay in front of your man...That is basic level basketball, like brushing your teeth is basic hygeniene, and is the responsibility of early bball programs. To me it's like saying a Calculus teacher is a bad teacher b/c he didn't teach you to add properly.

Did it dawn on you that the basic math teacher never taught you to add properly so now its up to the calculas teacher to do it?
 

KBlack25

Starter
Did it dawn on you that the basic math teacher never taught you to add properly so now its up to the calculas teacher to do it?

So the fact that these guys don't have fundamental defensive skills is the fault of the head coach on their professional team when these are things they should have learned when they started the game?

Also, I notice you didn't yet respond the AR fact massaging (something you claim you never do)...care to comment? Or are you just going to run, again? :)
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
Clydeandthepearl,

Any response to the evidence I posted? Or can we just say that you've been officially KO'd..

I posted hard stats dude.. What do you have to say?:thumbsup:
 
So the fact that these guys don't have fundamental defensive skills is the fault of the head coach on their professional team when these are things they should have learned when they started the game?

I would say sure. That is if you want your team to play defense.

Also, I notice you didn't yet respond the AR fact massaging (something you claim you never do)...care to comment? Or are you just going to run, again? :)

I just figured MDA's quote stating that he'd rather play 5 midgets that could run and shoot than a seven footer would cover any AR argument you could come up with...
 

KBlack25

Starter
I would say sure. That is if you want your team to play defense.

So if one your kids grew up to be a fine young adult, and had a girlfriend, but he didn't brush his teeth because you never taught him to...she has been with him for a couple of months after two decades of not doing it. Him not brushing his teeth would be her fault, not yours.


Clyde & The Pearl said:
I just figured MDA's quote stating that he'd rather play 5 midgets that could run and shoot than a seven footer would cover any AR argument you could come up with...

He was clearly being tongue-in-cheek.

And what I was referring to was you saying he played over 11 minutes once. I showed that factually untrue. I also showed that you claim to "never massage the facts." Then I caught you doing it. Care to comment?
 

STAT1

Starter
But you are more likely to blame the coach for on-the-court struggles.

For example: When I see Ray unable to step in front of his man on defense, it seems to me like you (and others) think "Man, D'Antoni ****ed up" whereas I see the same play and I think "Ray has to stay in front of his man." That is where the difference lies in informing our opinions.

I actually think Ray Felton is a big part of the reason in the improvement in defense you've seen this year, he brings that kind of mentality with him, he was coached up by Larry Brown in Charlotte he's always been known as a bulldog & competitor & he knows the importance of defense because he's learned this from other coaches he's played under. He wasn't born into the game of basketball as a defensive player, he was taught how to become one.

Let me just be clear, when I see individual players slacking on man-defense I blame the player first & foremost. But, when I see bad defensive rotations, guys looking at one another expecting the other to pick up their man on help defense & a general lack of intensity throughout the game on the defensive end, & then I watch D'Antoni with his arms folded on the sidelines with a pouty face and nothing changing after timeouts & empty quotes about having to pick up the intensity on the defensive side of the ball after games we've lost, then I blame the coaching for not drilling the importance of it into these players. Playing defense is a mindset, not a physical gift where some players have it & some players don't. As a coach it's your job to instill that kind of mindset into your players. If your team isn't stepping up their effort on the defense & looking clueless on defensive rotations, then I think the coach should be held accountable.
 
So if one your kids grew up to be a fine young adult, and had a girlfriend, but he didn't brush his teeth because you never taught him to...she has been with him for a couple of months after two decades of not doing it. Him not brushing his teeth would be her fault, not yours.




He was clearly being tongue-in-cheek.

And what I was referring to was you saying he played over 11 minutes once. I showed that factually untrue. I also showed that you claim to "never massage the facts." Then I caught you doing it. Care to comment?

OK. I've come to the conclusion you're an idiot. MDA was joking. Thats your only defense?
 

STAT1

Starter
That you didn't even read through the thread carefully says everything. As someone who's been here for a bit let me just pass this on: Start w reading the thread dude so you can understand where the debate has gone. Then comment.

Oh, and I'm a passionate Knicks fan. You better get used to that around here.

It's all good bro, we're all passionate Knick fans otherwise we wouldn't be posting on a fan forum in the first place. Just laying out my opinion to be heard, that's all. I'm no newbie to posting on forums I've been doing it for years, just decided to move on to this one after growing disenchanted with the last place I was posting on, way too many homers who were intolerant of an alternative point of view. So far this place seems like you got a good group of knowledgeable guys, I'm happy to be here.
 
Clydeandthepearl,

Any response to the evidence I posted? Or can we just say that you've been officially KO'd..

I posted hard stats dude.. What do you have to say?:thumbsup:

Dude you lost this argument the minute you entered the thread. MDA's quotes officially saw to that.

NEXT TOPIC PLEASE!!!
 
I actually think Ray Felton is a big part of the reason in the improvement in defense you've seen this year, he brings that kind of mentality with him, he was coached up by Larry Brown in Charlotte he's always been known as a bulldog & competitor & he knows the importance of defense because he's learned this from other coaches he's played under. He wasn't born into the game of basketball as a defensive player, he was taught how to become one.

Let me just be clear, when I see individual players slacking on man-defense I blame the player first & foremost. But, when I see bad defensive rotations, guys looking at one another expecting the other to pick up their man on help defense & a general lack of intensity throughout the game on the defensive end, & then I watch D'Antoni with his arms folded on the sidelines with a pouty face and nothing changing after timeouts & empty quotes about having to pick up the intensity on the defensive side of the ball after games we've lost, then I blame the coaching for not drilling the importance of it into these players. Playing defense is a mindset, not a physical gift where some players have it & some players don't. As a coach it's your job to instill that kind of mindset into your players. If your team isn't stepping up their effort on the defense & looking clueless on defensive rotations, then I think the coach should be held accountable.

Very well put. +1...
 

KBlack25

Starter
I actually think Ray Felton is a big part of the reason in the improvement in defense you've seen this year, he brings that kind of mentality with him, he was coached up by Larry Brown in Charlotte he's always been known as a bulldog & competitor & he knows the importance of defense because he's learned this from other coaches he's played under. He wasn't born into the game of basketball as a defensive player, he was taught how to become one.

Let me just be clear, when I see individual players slacking on man-defense I blame the player first & foremost. But, when I see bad defensive rotations, guys looking at one another expecting the other to pick up their man on help defense & a general lack of intensity throughout the game on the defensive end, & then I watch D'Antoni with his arms folded on the sidelines with a pouty face and nothing changing after timeouts & empty quotes about having to pick up the intensity on the defensive side of the ball after games we've lost, then I blame the coaching for not drilling the importance of it into these players. Playing defense is a mindset, not a physical gift where some players have it & some players don't. As a coach it's your job to instill that kind of mindset into your players. If your team isn't stepping up their effort on the defense & looking clueless on defensive rotations, then I think the coach should be held accountable.

On the contrary, I think defense IS a natural skillset that some players have and some players don't. Dwight Howard, Bruce Bowen, Artest, all those guys are just naturally good at defense and probably had it beaten into them at an early age. I mean when I see guys not collapsing, not helping on defense, I can't help but blame the players. When I played, and even now when I play pickup, guys who are not very good and do not do this for a living are able to switch, are able to play help defense...there is no coach, no "philosophy" in pick up games, no mindset. These are basic tenets of the game that players SHOULD understand. There are some that don't, those guys seem to be populating our team.

I only used Ray as an example b/c I watched him get burned by Bledsoe and Davis at the last game I went to, not to single him out. I do think he is rather good, I think he is better in an uptempo system though, like last year when he played against us, and we tried to run against Ray/G-Wall and Felton was throwing oops all day. He is just not a guy I think that is good in a Larry Brown system, but he is very fast in our system.

And unlike Clyde and the Pearl will have you believe, I got no hate for you if you come in and debate intelligently and logically, and you own up to facts. I just don't think he does, and I'm not alone in that opinion.
 

KBlack25

Starter
OK. I've come to the conclusion you're an idiot. MDA was joking. Thats your only defense?

Fine, I will take your statements seriously, even though I have seen him mess around with reporters before and speak tongue-in-cheek. But if I take his quotes seriously, then I take all of them seriously, and I go back to what I've seen when he is mic'd up, in the lockerroom, and in a few practice videos I have seen of him preaching and teaching defense. If I take everything you posted completely seriously, how then can you, on the other end, not take the other stuff he says equally seriously.

And still, no comment about massaging the AR facts? Pathetic.
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
Dude you lost this argument the minute you entered the thread. MDA's quotes officially saw to that.

NEXT TOPIC PLEASE!!!

Again,

Run forest Run lol...

I can't believe your going to just disregard relevant statistical evidence and then declare victory.. The true definition of a fraud. :aplause:

But then again, I've seen you do it repeatedly w Kblack so I shouldn't be surprised.
 
Again,

Run forest Run lol...

I can't believe your going to just disregard relevant statistical evidence and then declare victory.. The true definition of a fraud. :aplause:

But then again, I've seen you do it repeatedly w Kblack so I shouldn't be surprised.

Am I missing something? Are MDA's quotes fraudlent? I just figure if you and Black are idiots enough to argue for MDA and any sort of defensive philosophy, but against what he says he stands for himself you probably wont mind debating yourself. Because basically thats what you're doing. There really is nothing there.

I'll let you two go at it if you insist on continuing this charade.
 

STAT1

Starter
On the contrary, I think defense IS a natural skillset that some players have and some players don't. Dwight Howard, Bruce Bowen, Artest, all those guys are just naturally good at defense and probably had it beaten into them at an early age. I mean when I see guys not collapsing, not helping on defense, I can't help but blame the players. When I played, and even now when I play pickup, guys who are not very good and do not do this for a living are able to switch, are able to play help defense...there is no coach, no "philosophy" in pick up games, no mindset. These are basic tenets of the game that players SHOULD understand. There are some that don't, those guys seem to be populating our team.
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I only used Ray as an example b/c I watched him get burned by Bledsoe and Davis at the last game I went to, not to single him out. I do think he is rather good, I think he is better in an uptempo system though, like last year when he played against us, and we tried to run against Ray/G-Wall and Felton was throwing oops all day. He is just not a guy I think that is good in a Larry Brown system, but he is very fast in our system.

Chances are the players that are good defensively that you play with on the playground were all at some point taught to play with that type of mindset by the people teaching them the game. Yes, there maybe some cases where a player has grown up trying to pattern themselves to emulate a great defensive NBA player they have idolized, but no one's born into the basketball world with some special gift of knowing how to play great defense. It is a learned skill, just like any other basketball skill other than just being athletically gifted. In the end the buck always stops with the players to apply these learned skills, but you can't fault a player if he's not being taught these skills to begin with. When you have a player like STAT come out publically saying that he was never taught how to play defense until Alvin Gentry became the head coach in Phoenix, it's a pretty damning statement on D'Antoni's coaching philosophy, no?

In regards to Ray, I agree with you I've always felt he was much better suited for an uptempo style game. He used to run the break a lot in NC that's more his style of game. He had issues getting along with Larry Brown in Charlotte because of all the demands he sets on his PG's, which is nothing new for guys that run the point playing for him, but 1 thing is he definitely benefitted from having coach Brown drill the importance of playing D into his skull. If I recall correctly Chauncey Billups was never a really great defensive player until he got to Detroit & got to play for Larry Brown. I could be wrong on this if I am feel free to correct me.
 
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