Do It!!!!!

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
If a deal has to be done, then fine. I just don't see the need to trade now as much as you. To me, the risk of Melo signing somewhere else is not that big of a deal. I don't see him as the great player that many of you do. He's a great scorer, one of the best, but he doesn't make the players around him better, he dominates the ball, turns it over a lot, is awful from outside, etc. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a great player. I just don't see the need to give up everything to get him. Particulalry because he's a free agent this summer. There are better options. And that is just my opinion.

Signing him this summer is the best option for the Knicks and the quickest and easiest path towards a championship. That's what I want.

A Gallo + Randolph + Curry + 2014 pick deal is fair to me. Nuggets get two young promising players, cap relief and a future pick. Considering their position, they should be happy with that.

And, like you said, this allows us to keep Chandler, who can play multiple positions either starting or coming off the bench. And we keep Fields. We become very close to contenders if that deal goes down. And I'm definitely down with that.

All the same things could be said about Kobe with regards to scoring and efficiency. Using those same type of "modern" stats Kobe is an inefficient sorer as well. I'm sure Jordan would be considered inefficient as well had they used that type of conditional/fractional stats. Yes, MJ made his teammates better and I'm not in anyway suggesting that Melo is as good as either. I think Melo will improve upon much of what you just said playing in NYC alongside Amare. My evidence for this assumption is his play on Team USA when he facilitated much of the offense and was arguably the MVP. (in D'ants offense BTW)
 
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Stating you don't think something is very different then asserting something as fact. D'ant also never had a squad close to the Lakers nor did have the defensive players the Lakers had like Worthy and Jabar. I'm sure having a 6'10" PG helped with the rebounding and defense as well. That said, they were know for their high octane offense so your previous claim is false.

Claiming D'ant didn't do anything with the Suns is just false. Back to back 60+ win seasons, back to back WC finals appearances including leading against the superior Spurs 2-1 prior to Amare and Diaw being suspended is something. You are correct, they did not win a title but the Spurs were simply a better team regardless of the added issue of the Suns suspensions. Further, Riley and JVG did not win titles in NYC even though they had great defensive rosters. That in no way proves a system or coach is incapable of a title evidenced by Riley's many rings.

There will never be another team as talented at the Lakers and other teams back then. The league is watered down. So that argument is useless.

MDA has never won a ring. Probably never will unless he changes his ways.

Its kinda funny that you want to continue this strawman argument when I've given you statistical proof that MDA's ways wont win. Not in the NBA. When I entered this thread it was to enlighten you guys on why some of us want MDA replaced. You have written nothing at all that will change anyones mind. If anything the proof that I've given just makes my conviction stronger...
 
Since 1974-1975 season two teams won a chip that werent rated in the top ten defensively in the NBA.

1994-1995 Houston Rockets were rated 12th. The year before they also won a ring while being rated 2nd.

2000-2001 Lakers were rated 21st. Funny because the year before they won and were rated number 1 and the year after they won and were rated 7th.

Defense wins championships folks. Dont be fooled...
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
There will never be another team as talented at the Lakers and other teams back then. The league is watered down. So that argument is useless.

Yet, it is you trying to compare D'ant, the Suns and the Knicks to your observations made during your 30 years of watching basketball...:thumbsup:

MDA has never won a ring. Probably never will unless he changes his ways.

You are correct, D'ant has never won a ring and I explained that in proper context. FYI, only 3 active coaches have rings and great coaches like JVG never won a ring either. Not having won a ring YET proves absolutely nothing about ones capability to do so.

Its kinda funny that you want to continue this strawman argument when I've given you statistical proof that MDA's ways wont win. Not in the NBA. When I entered this thread it was to enlighten you guys on why some of us want MDA replaced. You have written nothing at all that will change anyones mind. If anything the proof that I've given just makes my conviction stronger...

You obviously need to look up what a strawman argument is because I have never presented one. Further, please show this "statistical proof" that you claim you presented that somehow proves an unknowable such as "D'ant will never win a title".
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Since 1974-1975 season two teams won a chip that werent rated in the top ten defensively in the NBA.

1994-1995 Houston Rockets were rated 12th. The year before they also won a ring while being rated 2nd.

2000-2001 Lakers were rated 21st. Funny because the year before they won and were rated number 1 and the year after they won and were rated 7th.

Defense wins championships folks. Dont be fooled...

LOL at you proving your own initial point wrong, ignoring it and restating your initial assertions. No one is arguing defense is not important or that historically the teams that won were defensively good. What I and many others have been saying is:

1. I reject the premise that D'ant does not care about defense and there is 4 other threads where I go into great length supporting my points. I will not reiterate all of them and if you wish to debate them, go to one of those threads and quote me, present a counter argument and I will debate you.

2. Just because D'ant has not won a title or coached teams with elite defenders dows not mean he does not care about defense or is incapable of winning a title.
 
Yet, it is you trying to compare D'ant, the Suns and the Knicks to your observations made during your 30 years of watching basketball...:thumbsup:



You are correct, D'ant has never won a ring and I explained that in proper context. FYI, only 3 active coaches have rings and great coaches like JVG never won a ring either. Not having won a ring YET proves absolutely nothing about ones capability to do so.



You obviously need to look up what a straw man argument is because I have never presented one. Further, please show this "statistical proof" that you claim you presented that somehow proves an unknowable such as "D'ant will never win a title".

Like I said earlier no matter how much statistical proof is provided to you MDA supporters you're all content with the status quo.

Can MDA win the way he currently does things? Sure. Ther's a very slight chance we get lucky. Based on the past performance I provided for you its highly unlikely.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Like I said earlier no matter how much statistical proof is provided to you MDA supporters you're all content with the status quo.

Can MDA win the way he currently does things? Sure. Ther's a very slight chance we get lucky. Based on the past performance I provided for you its highly unlikely.

What statistical proof?
 
Yet, it is you trying to compare D'ant, the Suns and the Knicks to your observations made during your 30 years of watching basketball...:thumbsup:

Nice try. But having teams as talented as those teams and having teams that play defense is TOTALLY DIFFERENT.:rolleyes:



You are correct, D'ant has never won a ring and I explained that in proper context. FYI, only 3 active coaches have rings and great coaches like JVG never won a ring either. Not having won a ring YET proves absolutely nothing about ones capability to do so.

Apples and Oranges. You are comparing a coach that understands and preaches and teaches defense to someone that has a blatant disregard for it. Defense has proven to be the best way over a 36 year stretch to win a chip. HANDS DOWN. When you go to any arena in the league what chant do you hear? OFFENSE? No son. DEF-FENSE. Millions upon millions of fans realize this is, has and always will be the ticket to winning championships. Except for you and a few MDA supporters. :teeth: I guess we're all wrong...



You obviously need to look up what a strawman argument is because I have never presented one. Further, please show this "statistical proof" that you claim you presented that somehow proves an unknowable such as "D'ant will never win a title".


True no one knows the future. But based on past history especially history that heavily favors what I'm telling you an educated guess is not out of the realm of possibility.
 
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TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Nice try. But having teams as talented as those teams and having teams that play defense is TOTALLY DIFFERENT.:rolleyes:

And you would have us believe that talent level does not factor into a teams defense. :rolleyes: It's simply a matter of having the right coach and the Knicks or Suns would have been defensive Juggernauts.:thumbsup:

Apples and Oranges. You are comparing a coach that understands and preaches defense to someone that has a blatant disregard for it. Defense has proven to be the best way over a 36 year stretch to win a chip. When you go to any arena in the league what chant do you hear? OFFENSE? No son. DEF-FENSE. Millions upon millions of fans realize this is, has and always will be the ticket to winning championships. Except for you and a few MDA supporters. :teeth: I guess we're all wrong...

Again, I have laid out how the assertions that D'ant has a blatant disregard for defense is false in many threads. I actually did so in another thread with quotes and an article regrading Jared Jefferies that you participated in. (amongst many, many other points) I even dared you IN THAT THREAD to quote and debate me but you refused. Ignoring my points and going round and round in another thread is what you rather do. I will not restate all those points as I took my valuable time to lay them out for you already more than once.

I will however since the video is available post a huddle of D'ant coaching, not just preaching defense as the coach of the Suns. Notice how he direct HOF PG Nash on what to do in order to contain Michale Red.



Videos speak louder than words...
 
And you would have us believe that talent level does not factor into a teams defense. :rolleyes: It's simply a matter of having the right coach and the Knicks or Suns would have been defensive Juggernauts.:thumbsup:



Again, I have laid out how the assertions that D'ant has a blatant disregard for defense is false in many threads. I actually did so in another thread with quotes and an article regrading Jared Jefferies that you participated in. (amongst many, many other points) I even dared you IN THAT THREAD to quote and debate me but you refused. Ignoring my points and going round and round in another thread is what you rather do. I will not restate all those points as I took my valuable time to lay them out for you already more than once.

I will however since the video is available post a huddle of D'ant coaching, not just preaching defense as the coach of the Suns. Notice how he direct HOF PG Nash on what to do in order to contain Michale Red.



Videos speak louder than words...

And STATS speak louder than video. Educate yourself and see where MDA coached teams finished in defensive rating, then get back to me. If you still want to debate your bogus contention I'll be surprised.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
And STATS speak louder than video. Educate yourself and see where MDA coached teams finished in defensive rating, then get back to me. If you still want to debate your bogus contention I'll be surprised.

Wait, you stated several times that D'ant does not care about defense and I show a video where he is actively coaching it, calling for switches before the play materializes and when Nash is slow to react D'ant gets pissed and of course you respond too quickly to actually watch the video! :barf:

My video directly shows D'ant does care and coach defense and you wont even watch it! :thumbsup: Further, you again are ignoring all my other points about the roster having more to do with a teams defense then a coach. The Suns were an underrated defensive team and ignorant people who are incapable of digging a bit conclude they were weak based off of PPG ignoring differential and points per 100 possessions. SSOL inflates possessions which leads to an inflated score for both teams on average. Here is more proof since you are hellbent on rehashing this same debate in yet another thread instead of responding to my points in one of the other 5 threads on this very subject:

Jeffries, in fact, presents a strong counter-argument to those who contend that D’Antoni cares only about offense. Jeffries was easily the Knicks’ least skilled offensive player. Yet he started 37 of 52 games this season and was sixth in minutes per game (28.1). He led the Knicks in charges drawn.

I think that Mike’s a realist,’’ Jeffries said. “Defending, like anything else in the NBA, is a talent level. And you can’t have people that are not great defenders and expect them to be great defenders. Just like you can’t have people that aren’t great scorers and expect them to be great scorers. He put me out there to be a defender and he puts guys out there to be scorers. He does focus on defense, but if you don’t have defensive players, then you’re not going to be a great defensive team.’’

http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/jeffries-dantoni-cares-about-knicks-defense/

Yup!:thumbsup: He does not care about defense at all! :teeth:
 
Wait, you stated several times that D'ant does not care about defense and I show a video where he is actively coaching it, calling for switches before the play materializes and when Nash is slow to react D'ant gets pissed and of course you respond too quickly to actually watch the video! :barf:

My video directly shows D'ant does care and coach defense and you wont even watch it! :thumbsup: Further, you again are ignoring all my other points about the roster having more to do with a teams defense then a coach. The Suns were an underrated defensive team and ignorant people who are incapable of digging a bit conclude they were weak based off of PPG ignoring differential and points per 100 possessions. SSOL inflates possessions which leads to an inflated score for both teams on average. Here is more proof since you are hellbent on rehashing this same debate in yet another thread instead of responding to my points in one of the other 5 threads on this very subject:





http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/22/jeffries-dantoni-cares-about-knicks-defense/

Yup!:thumbsup: He does not care about defense at all! :teeth:

Dude I didnt even look at the vid. MDA has never focused his team/teams on playing defense. The STATS prove this. Give it up.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Dude I didnt even look at the vid. MDA has never focused his team/teams on playing defense. The STATS prove this. Give it up.


Round and round bobbing and weaving, dodging one point after another. I know you did not look at the video since you posted so quickly. Why are you so afraid to accumulate more facts? Are you more interested in "winning" then in actually learning and updating your beliefs? Burying your head in the sand like an ostrich does not make my points or reality go away.

You are the one who needs to give it up or prove your claims above a video, quotes and all my points that "D'ant has a blatant disregard for defense". No sir, you have a blatant disregard for reality, debate tactics and logical reasoning...
 

KBlack25

Starter
Even if you disagree that the video is indicative of anything, wouldn't you just want to watch it to learn more about the game and our coach?
 

SSj4Wingzero

All Star
Furthermore, obviously a team like the Suns at that point will give up way more points than other teams because of the whole MORE POSSESSIONS thing.

What's more important, the amount of points the opposition scores in and of itself or the DIFFERENTIAL, or the POINTS PER POSSESSION, etc.

I mean, a Mike D'Antoni coached team could have 100 points and it could actually have been a terrible offensive night because it took you 100 shots to get there.

It's the same reason we don't judge players on PPG alone and say "Hey since Player A has a higher PPG than Player B player A is automatically a better scorer!" because it's just not true. If Player A gets his 30 PPG on 29 shots and player B gets his 25 PPG on 18 shots then Player B is the far better player.

That's what you have to take into account as well when comparing teams and offense and whatnot.

For example, everybody who watches our games knows that we get out-rebounded on a nightly basis. We never grab more rebounds than anyone.

But we grab an average of 41.1 rebounds per game, which is about average, so we're an average rebounding team!

No. We're not. Because our rebounding differential is a putrid -3.3, meaning the opposition grabs 3.3 rebounds more than we do on average per game. We grab 41.1 rebounds a game due to the increased pace factor. But the opposition also benefits.

If you want to talk Defensive Rating which is points per 100 possessions then D'Antoni's teams were 17th 16th, 13th, and 16th in the league in defensive rating. Factoring in the fact that they played in the tougher Western Conference, that works out to be an average to slightly above average defense for the number of possessions per game they had, factoring into account the strength of schedule (playing against the toughest teams in the NBA regularly) and the pace.

It'd be like saying we're one of the top offensive teams in the league and we don't need Carmelo because we're 2nd in the league in scoring.

That's not true even in the slightest. We're only 8th in the league in Offensive Rating. We're 21st in the league in Defensive rating, which makes us an above average team offensively and a below average team defensively. If we got Carmelo we'd probably be 2nd in the league in offensive rating, and we'll be below average in the league in defensive rating until we pick up a big man who can rebound and block shots.

Fun Fact: Despite the common opinion that Alvin Gentry is a better coach than D'Antoni because he emphasized DEFENSE, Gentry's Suns last year were 1st (!) in the league in Offensive Rating and 23rd (!!) in the league in defensive rating.

Yup. Last year's Suns basically shot their way into the playoffs.
 
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TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Furthermore, obviously a team like the Suns at that point will give up way more points than other teams because of the whole MORE POSSESSIONS thing.

What's more important, the amount of points the opposition scores in and of itself or the DIFFERENTIAL, or the POINTS PER POSSESSION, etc.

I mean, a Mike D'Antoni coached team could have 100 points and it could actually have been a terrible offensive night because it took you 100 shots to get there.

It's the same reason we don't judge players on PPG alone and say "Hey since Player A has a higher PPG than Player B player A is automatically a better scorer!" because it's just not true. If Player A gets his 30 PPG on 29 shots and player B gets his 25 PPG on 18 shots then Player B is the far better player.

That's what you have to take into account as well when comparing teams and offense and whatnot.

For example, everybody who watches our games knows that we get out-rebounded on a nightly basis. We never grab more rebounds than anyone.

But we grab an average of 41.1 rebounds per game, which is about average, so we're an average rebounding team!

No. We're not. Because our rebounding differential is a putrid -3.3, meaning the opposition grabs 3.3 rebounds more than we do on average per game. We grab 41.1 rebounds a game due to the increased pace factor. But the opposition also benefits.

If you want to talk Defensive Rating which is points per 100 possessions then D'Antoni's teams were 17th 16th, 13th, and 16th in the league in defensive rating. Factoring in the fact that they played in the tougher Western Conference, that works out to be an average to slightly above average defense for the number of possessions per game they had, factoring into account the strength of schedule (playing against the toughest teams in the NBA regularly) and the pace.

It'd be like saying we're one of the top offensive teams in the league and we don't need Carmelo because we're 2nd in the league in scoring.

That's not true even in the slightest. We're only 8th in the league in Offensive Rating. We're 21st in the league in Defensive rating, which makes us an above average team offensively and a below average team defensively. If we got Carmelo we'd probably be 2nd in the league in offensive rating, and we'll be below average in the league in defensive rating until we pick up a big man who can rebound and block shots.

Fun Fact: Despite the common opinion that Alvin Gentry is a better coach than D'Antoni because he emphasized DEFENSE, Gentry's Suns last year were 1st (!) in the league in Offensive Rating and 23rd (!!) in the league in defensive rating.

Yup. Last year's Suns basically shot their way into the playoffs.

If I could find enough people worthy of handing out rep points just so I could give you two for this post I would! What a succinct and articulate way of breaking down wheat I and others have been saying. Bravo!
 

SSj4Wingzero

All Star
Yes, loquaciousness is one of my vices...

But really there's too much emphasis on "lolol other team 100 points!!!! lolol"

Defense isn't about how many points you hold the opposition to, it's how many points LESS THAN YOU HAVE that you hold the opposition to, and that's what's really important, right?
 

la2ny

Starter
Yes, loquaciousness is one of my vices...

But really there's too much emphasis on "lolol other team 100 points!!!! lolol"

Defense isn't about how many points you hold the opposition to, it's how many points LESS THAN YOU HAVE that you hold the opposition to, and that's what's really important, right?

While it should be looked at that way, it is not. Similar to how the 3 point fg made record is looked at as a milestone accomplishment, while the 2 point fg made record isn't even mentioned. Most people see opponents ppg as the defensive statistic mark while point differential is somewhat overlooked unless it's a ridiculous amount.
 
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