Melo wants to be dealt to NY but Denver wants to deal with NJ

[metrocard]

Trading for Melo this season would be dumb!

1.Why give up assessts (spelled wrong I'm being lazy) for him this year when we can keep them and pair them with him next year?

(next year's team if we just signed Melo during the off season)

Felton/Douglas
Wilson/Feilds
Melo/Gallo/Feilds
Amare/Gallo/Wilson/Randolph
Tariaf/Mozgov/Amare/Randolph


or
(if we traded for Melo, our lineup for the rest of the season)

Felton/Douglas
Melo/Walker/Douglas
Gallo/Walker
Amare/Randolph
Tariaf/Randolph

option 1 clearly has us as a deeper, more potent and more balanced team because Feilds,Wilson and Mozgov will likely be the asking price and then we are left with more holes to fill.


2.Say we dump Wilson and Feilds (which is what it will take) for Melo, then our whole offense is disrupted players have to get used to each other again and we regress back to the first month of the season. Adding Melo in the Summer means he is apart of camp and while there would still be an adjustment for us, Mike D and Co. are better prepared for it having had all summer to figure how to incorporate him

3. Losing Feilds and Wilson is probablly not worth just Melo. Look Melo is better on a sub par day than both of these players individually, but collectively they both represent more than what Melo brings to the table.

Wilson and Landy combine for 27 pts, 13 rebs and 2 blks vs. Melo's 22 pts and 8 rebs and both players shoot the ball at a much higher clip and neither needs the ball like Melo does.

Not to mention both players are versatile enough to cover mutiple positions on both sides of the ball for us and that is not the case w Melo. At best this would be a wash!

So, I'm not saying we don't need Melo I just think being that we have an opportunity to sign him this summer why give up anything for him.

post of the year.

 

[SSj4Wingzero]

I agree we shouldn't give up anything for Carmelo. If he's signing in the off-season we're better off trading for a center who can anchor the paint and then getting Melo in the off-season...unless he reconsiders signing the extension with the Nets, but frankly I don't see it happening. Melo isn't stupid, he's probably smart enough to know that the Nets are terrible as it is and if they trade for him they'll give up their youth and a couple of their draft picks so they'll be slightly better than they are now but with no potential for improvement.

As long as Melo refuses to sign the extension he's not going anywhere. But Melo also says he doesn't want to leave Denver hanging. I say if we can give up some expiring contracts for him then we should consider it. That way at least Denver retains their cap space. Maybe we'll spin one of our players for a first-rounder, or something like that. I wouldn't mind if we pulled off a Pau Gasol-esque trade for him...

 

[iSaYughh]

3. Losing Feilds and Wilson is probablly not worth just Melo. Look Melo is better on a sub par day than both of these players individually, but collectively they both represent more than what Melo brings to the table.

Wilson and Landy combine for 27 pts, 13 rebs and 2 blks vs. Melo's 22 pts and 8 rebs and both players shoot the ball at a much higher clip and neither needs the ball like Melo does.

I agree entirely w premise and think it's terrible if Walsh doesn't show the killer instinct to gut DEN (and the entire league), by sitting tight at this point, and bank on signing Melo in the off season.

But disagree w/ above. Wilson and Landy both combine more than Melo, sure. But it wouldn't be *just* Melo. If they left for Melo, it would be Melo + ____ vs them in the equation of playing time.

I also put a premium on having One Guy who can also be The Guy, if you're a playoff team, and are wanting to finish out and close big games with consistency and a plan.

But I guess the bottomline is we agree in what to actually do and what it looks like we can do.

Melo is going to get to be with STAT and be what Lebron wetdreamed he could be with Wade.

And it'll be with them owning NYC-MSG-NYK dynamic in play.

 

[Knicks4Life_1985]

post of the year.

co sign.. this ***** needs to blog !!!

 

[keyser soze]

post of the year.

It's an interesting way to look at things for sure, but I don't think it's all that relevant. The intrinsic value of Carmelo isn't just in his 22 pts and 8 rebounds (btw, 22 and 8 is unusually low for him), it's in the fact that he is one of the few players in the NBA that must be double teamed on a fairly consistent basis. If you think about it, that's also the biggest difference between STAT and David Lee. Lee put up some good numbers but he wasn't a guy other teams felt the need to double the way they feel the need to double STAT. STAT is a true number 1 option on a championship caliber team, he's a true game-changing player. And So is Carmelo.

Having two players on the same team who both demand double teams on a fairly consistent basis the way STAT and Carmelo would, is simply invaluable. It changes the way teams can defend us and it gives guys like Gallo that many more open looks.

And Finally, Carmelo is a dominant wing-scorer who can get his own shot in the 4th quarter of a close game. In today's NBA, you need one of these guys to be a championship contender, IMO.

 

[TR1LL10N]

post of the year.

It is a great post but a few crucial points are missing from an almost perfect post. When you compare the stats of two players vs. one, people forget that it will be Melo plus another player filling those two players stats not just Melo. If one player can contribute almost as much as two once you add in another player along side Melo that combination MIGHT be better. I tend to think that concentrating production in one player is better than it spread amongst two even if it does not quite add up to the same exact stats. Let's also remember that Melo will draw a double team every time he has the ball. Think about how hard we would be to defend when STAT, Melo and even Felton need double teams to be contained. I am one who thinks that STAT and Melo will compliment each other nicley. Melo changed gears, adjusted his style and was an efficient platy-maker for a talent filled Team USA so I think he can adapt in NYC.

That said, I am a fan of Fields and think he will get better with time. He can play both ends of the court so I think he is a keeper. (especially at a 2nd round salary)

Chandler is solid, playing well on both ends but is going to look for a big payday and someone is most likely going to overpay for him. I think it would be a mistake to be that team who overpays getting into a bidding war to keep his services. This leads me to believe that either way he is gone next year...could be worng.

Obviously the ideal situation is to wait to FA and try and keep our young core intact and just add Melo or fill needs like a defensive rebounding center and pure shooter. Either way, Walsh has to get props for putting us in a position where we even contemplate turning down the services of a player of Melo's caliber!

 

[GetRealistic]

This is something different for the Knicks. We're actually in the drivers seat when it comes to this team. We have a winning record, cap space, and a bright future. Melo obviously doesn't want to go the Nets and is more then willing to wait the year out if need be.

The Nuggs at some point will get desperate and want to atleast get something in return. And since we'll be in control we can pay 50 cents on the dollar for Melo. At this point i would only trade Randolph, Gallo/Wilson,( preferably Wilson since his contract is up and we need Gallo's shooting) Currys contract and some second round picks for Melo.

I'd say Fields due to his play and super low contract is untouchable unless the deal expands. The deal i suggest which seems plausible now since Denver would get us would basically be trading one of our two SF's and Randolph for Melo which would be a win.

Felton
Fields
Melo
Stat
Turiaf

with a bench of Williams, TD, Gallo/Chandler, and possibly a Denver throw in is a legit Finals team with the way Felton and Stat are playing.

Play hard ball Donnie you have all the bargaining chips even if Melo goes to NJ he isn't resigning.

 

[Knicks4lyfe]

Not getting Melo this year if we can is completely nutty to me. You will have a younger, stronger version of KG and Pierce in essence, and people are like it aint worth it. Over Landry Fields and Chandler, the latter whom we won't be re-signing anyways, so why not trade him for a much better player? Curry part of the deal, has not, nor ever will play for us again. If they want another fringe player, who cares? These are the same guys we were all willing to part with before the season, and woulf have gladly parted with for him at 3-8.

Im not gonna pretend us playing better means we should sit back when we have a clear shot at getting a top 3 scorer, who does not need to dominate the ball to his. Plus, he will be the next option when Stat sits, that we dont have now. That opens things up all game for everyone else.

We get this guy, with improved defense, we can beat anyone. Not saying we will, but we CAN! Have we not waited long enough?

 

[p0nder]

Gutting the entire team to fit in Melo doesn't make complete sense tho. I could live with curry, chandler, walker and AR going in a trade. Aside from those players i don't think we should take people out of the line up... I'm even hesitant to include guys like Williams, who could become a chandler type of player for cheaper with a better deep ball threat.

Basically it's a bit of chess match going on here. Melo wants to go to a team he feels he can win a championship at. He knows that deep down he wants to go to the knicks and that if the knicks gut the team for him they have a much worse chance at achieving his goal. He can't publicly request the trade to NY and he doesn't want to leave Denver empty handed and have people in colorado burning his jersey.

Donnie Walsh just wants to get his man with as little egg on his face as possible. If he can wait til offseason and pick him up in maybe a sign and trade with denver for peanuts then lets do that. It's becoming more obvious that Denver is losing leverage with melo and his trade value as a rental player is peanuts, probably close to what he they would get in a sign and trade with the knicks.

Melo's trade value right now is rock bottom and it means that Donnie could swoop in and be Denver's Hero. Offer them a nice package including the stop-gap solution in Chandler, cap space with eddy's contract and a project player in Anthony Randolph. This is actually a VERY good deal for Denver, who could stand to get NOTHING if they do not find a way to deal Melo soon!

 

[Knicks4lyfe]

Gutting the entire team to fit in Melo doesn't make complete sense tho. I could live with curry, chandler, walker and AR going in a trade. Aside from those players i don't think we should take people out of the line up... I'm even hesitant to include guys like Williams, who could become a chandler type of player for cheaper with a better deep ball threat.

Basically it's a bit of chess match going on here. Melo wants to go to a team he feels he can win a championship at. He knows that deep down he wants to go to the knicks and that if the knicks gut the team for him they have a much worse chance at achieving his goal. He can't publicly request the trade to NY and he doesn't want to leave Denver empty handed and have people in colorado burning his jersey.

Donnie Walsh just wants to get his man with as little egg on his face as possible. If he can wait til offseason and pick him up in maybe a sign and trade with denver for peanuts then lets do that. It's becoming more obvious that Denver is losing leverage with melo and his trade value as a rental player is peanuts, probably close to what he they would get in a sign and trade with the knicks.

Melo's trade value right now is rock bottom and it means that Donnie could swoop in and be Denver's Hero. Offer them a nice package including the stop-gap solution in Chandler, cap space with eddy's contract and a project player in Anthony Randolph. This is actually a VERY good deal for Denver, who could stand to get NOTHING if they do not find a way to deal Melo soon!

Exactly! They are done. When they brought this into the season, they blew it. No team is giving them multiple draft picks for a rental. We wont have to gut the team for him, so why not get him now?

 

[iSaYughh]

Too many absolutes not rooted in the nuance of the dynamic that's actually in play.

The team isn't getting gutted to get Melo, even if we do trade for him.

If we do trade for him and give up quality, it's not a simple equation of adding two players' stats vs Melo (Trillion describes nicely ^); moreover, in the case of say, Chandler, we'd be saving 10M (or some approximate number) in yearly cap. Wilson is a FA.

And of course, if it was the simple decision of: do we want to add Melo, or add Melo and lose X, Y, Z.

Obviously everyone wants to just sign Melo. There's no news there. And unless Walsh is really Isiah Thomas with George Bush's instincts, there wouldn't be a sliver of doubt that we wouldn't "just" sign him.

It's a game of leverage and reading/responding to Melo's insecurity over a new cba agreement.

And it's not really about impatience and needing instant gratification (though the possibility of making a run this year is a nice bonus; every championship window has an expiration date).

*DEN only gets something for Melo if Melo hastens for a trade this season
*Melo hastnes for a trade if he gets real spooked about getting ****ed by new NBA rules

The x-factor is just how "scared" Melo gets, and just how serious DEN perceives his will to be, in the context of Melo wanting to come to us and them wanting to get something for us vs a calculated longer-shot of getting a lot from a place like NJ.

We're sandwiched between this, in a game of chicken and bluffing. That's --all-- this is.

And it is a --fluid-- process.

As we look better and better as a team, as the power of the MSG-NYK brabd and market grows, our value to Melo surges and the aforesaid "risk" to be scared of loses grip.

This weakens DEN's already tenuous grip more and more.

At some point Walsh will want to lock shit down. If there's a 90% shot, eg, that we can just sign Melo, but we can make it 100% by giving up marginal assets, he likely pulls trigger.

This is optimized to our advantage as long as we keep balling, which goes hand in hand with the stroke of time ticking.

All parties will likely resolve this at an 11th hour situation where DEN bends over deep, gets something, and we get Melo; or, contra this, if say our 3-8 struggling team kept that pace, they'd get more.

Ironically, their trade leverage might be so good that WE then counter by forcing the ball strictly back to Melo and bank on an out and out signings.

The most important thing is that this is a fluid process, it always has been. And while it is obvious to prefer to just sign him, and it is obviously looking more like a distinct possibility, it wasn't always this way -- and it isn't an absolute now, either.

If Walsh doesn't see us doing Melo + Chandler as our signings he will basically do a Chandler for Melo trade, as Chandler is reduced to being a non-factor for us. That's a business and financial call. If he thinks he can get M.Gasol or Big Baby plus Melo, he likely uses Chandler to try to ensure Melo this season.

Everyone (DEN, Melo, us) has someone to win, and something to lose in this spot.

Chandler/Curry/AR or a pick if Walsh wants a big this off season. Curry/AR/Douglas type deal if he wants to resign Chandler and ride STAT/turiaf/Moz as our 5's.

edit -- Fields may go, also, in either potential trade...we likely keep AR and Douglas if so. But I don't even see that as a necessity to include as long as we keep NYK pride high.

The chance of Melo to join STAT on an elite young team in NCV, and do what Lebron wet dreamed of being with Wade, will be an enormous pull.

We can thank Walsh daily for making the astute signing of Felton and drafting of Fields in ensuring our surge of success and statute this season.

 

[SSj4Wingzero]

I wouldn't mind trading Carmelo for 50 cents on the dollar either. Eventually the Nuggets are going to relent otherwise they're losing him for NOTHING. If they lose him for nothing, then they're mega-screwed...

If they want the max value for him they'll pull a deal for him NOW and they'll accept a package of Curry/Douglas/Walker/Randolph and be done with it.

 

[New New York]

I agree entirely w premise and think it's terrible if Walsh doesn't show the killer instinct to gut DEN (and the entire league), by sitting tight at this point, and bank on signing Melo in the off season.

But disagree w/ above. Wilson and Landy both combine more than Melo, sure. But it wouldn't be *just* Melo. If they left for Melo, it would be Melo + ____ vs them in the equation of playing time.

I also put a premium on having One Guy who can also be The Guy, if you're a playoff team, and are wanting to finish out and close big games with consistency and a plan.

But I guess the bottomline is we agree in what to actually do and what it looks like we can do.

Melo is going to get to be with STAT and be what Lebron wetdreamed he could be with Wade.

And it'll be with them owning NYC-MSG-NYK dynamic in play.

I'm pretty sure it would just be Melo, I mean a player like Balkman may get thrown in to make the salaries work, but more than likely Melo would be the only player producing that Denver would part with, furthermore I think Walsh would only want a player who's deal is coming off the books this year, and while JR Smith fits that mold (plus we could sure use him if we did part w/ Wilson and Feilds) I seriously doubt Denver parts with him.

So the more you think about it, the more a trade for Melo looks unlikely.

Plus lets say our "gamble" backfires and we don't trade for Melo and he either gets traded elsewhere (and signs the extension) or signs the extension w/ Denver, we still could make major upgrades to our team this off season.

if the cap comes in at 60 million next year (which is reasonable given the attendence rise in the league this year) The Knicks would have about 18 milllion to spend.

I say we give Tyson Chandler a contract starting at 8 million and we give Jason Richardson a 10 million dollar deal. Now either Gallo is traded for some future picks and Wilson is re-signed or Wilson we just allow Wilson to walk would be the big issue to decide...but lets just say we keep Wilson

Felton/Douglas
Richardson/Feilds/Walker
Wilson/Feilds
Amare/Randolph
Ty.Chandler/Tariaf/Amare/Randolph

That is putting players around Amare to compliment what he does! A playmaking PG, Shooter to spread the floor, players who can create for themselves (namely Richardson), rebounding and shotblocking help, not to mention this is still a very young team!


Point is.....losing out on Melo is far from the worst thing that could happen!

 

[New New York]

It is a great post but a few crucial points are missing from an almost perfect post. When you compare the stats of two players vs. one, people forget that it will be Melo plus another player filling those two players stats not just Melo. If one player can contribute almost as much as two once you add in another player along side Melo that combination MIGHT be better. I tend to think that concentrating production in one player is better than it spread amongst two even if it does not quite add up to the same exact stats. Let's also remember that Melo will draw a double team every time he has the ball. Think about how hard we would be to defend when STAT, Melo and even Felton need double teams to be contained. I am one who thinks that STAT and Melo will compliment each other nicley. Melo changed gears, adjusted his style and was an efficient platy-maker for a talent filled Team USA so I think he can adapt in NYC.

That said, I am a fan of Fields and think he will get better with time. He can play both ends of the court so I think he is a keeper. (especially at a 2nd round salary)

Chandler is solid, playing well on both ends but is going to look for a big payday and someone is most likely going to overpay for him. I think it would be a mistake to be that team who overpays getting into a bidding war to keep his services. This leads me to believe that either way he is gone next year...could be worng.

Obviously the ideal situation is to wait to FA and try and keep our young core intact and just add Melo or fill needs like a defensive rebounding center and pure shooter. Either way, Walsh has to get props for putting us in a position where we even contemplate turning down the services of a player of Melo's caliber!

I kinda agree, but think about this... You made a great point about Melo drawing doubles, but really what will happen is that teams will just pack the lanes against The Knicks and force Melo to shoot, thus making it a little harder for Amare to score.

Plus both Wilson and Feilds help us win in other ways other than scoring, how many huge offensive rebounds has Feilds grabbed and how many big blocks has Wilson had to either kill momentum for the other team or continue ours, plus they both have a knack for timely shots for us.

You gotta admit it, Melo is primarily a scorer and not much more, and while he and Stat would generate a lot of Buzz at MSG, its not like its Melo or bust.

Please dont get me wrong, I would love to see Melo here, I think he would help out when we get that deer in the headlight look late in the 4th I just don't think a trade for him is neccessary this season.

 

[TR1LL10N]

I'm pretty sure it would just be Melo, I mean a player like Balkman may get thrown in to make the salaries work, but more than likely Melo would be the only player producing that Denver would part with, furthermore I think Walsh would only want a player who's deal is coming off the books this year, and while JR Smith fits that mold (plus we could sure use him if we did part w/ Wilson and Feilds) I seriously doubt Denver parts with him.

So the more you think about it, the more a trade for Melo looks unlikely.

Plus lets say our "gamble" backfires and we don't trade for Melo and he either gets traded elsewhere (and signs the extension) or signs the extension w/ Denver, we still could make major upgrades to our team this off season.

if the cap comes in at 60 million next year (which is reasonable given the attendence rise in the league this year) The Knicks would have about 18 milllion to spend.

I say we give Tyson Chandler a contract starting at 8 million and we give Jason Richardson a 10 million dollar deal. Now either Gallo is traded for some future picks and Wilson is re-signed or Wilson we just allow Wilson to walk would be the big issue to decide...but lets just say we keep Wilson

Felton/Douglas
Richardson/Feilds/Walker
Wilson/Feilds
Amare/Randolph
Ty.Chandler/Tariaf/Amare/Randolph

That is putting players around Amare to compliment what he does! A playmaking PG, Shooter to spread the floor, players who can create for themselves (namely Richardson), rebounding and shotblocking help, not to mention this is still a very young team!


My original point is.....losing out on Melo is far from the worst thing that could happen!

You're missing my original point. With Melo we still need to put 5 on the court and retain a reasonable rotation so even if it were a Knick someone will step in and put additional numbers up. That person may not be better than either traded player but along side Melo might be a better combo. Further Chandler is going to be FA.