Revenge & Evolution: Knicks @ Cavs 2-25-11

[hometheaterguy]

Man I was cursing and going mental watching that game.

What a ****ing horrible performance by the Knicks!

Every time we play the Cavs we get completely overwhelmed by their effort and start chocking on offense.

I really start to hate D'Antoni for these kind of defeats where he simply refuses to adjust. You gotta get physical and tough in those games.

Play Turiaf/Shelden Williams/Balkman/Melo/Billups in the 4th.

Amare didn't play defense at all, his rebounding was horrible. Toney had a tough night on offense, Landry was struggling on defense, Shawne Williams is a ****ing small forward who has to guard centers and Bill Walker doesn't play defense at all.

Horrible rotation by D'Antoni tonight.
Another L we can give him credit for.

I'm reading these posts and I am speechless! When a few members spoke out against the Melo trade stating that scoring wasn't the issue, defense and rebounding was; we were nailed! We warned everyone that we were small to begin with and didn't have anyone that could really scrap for the ball so we should be looking to surround Amare with players that can defend and rebound. Again, we were nailed.
Before the Knicks made this trade we were one of the top scoring teams in the NBA, yet we were one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA. Now, we trade Gallo (was arguably our best defender) and Mozgov, a 7' 1" project that wasn't consistent, still a little "clunky" but needed time to develop; there was tremendous upside to him. For a super star scorer who doesn't play a lick of defense in Melo... Sheldon Williams, a undersized 5 who barley played in Denver. Renaldo Balkman, an undersized 4 that didn't play in Denver.... Starting to see a trend here???
Now we have EXACTLY what we were warned about; a 1 dimensional team that has NO ONE who can bang the boards or play any defense whatsoever.
Until Walsh brings in a few more complimentary pieces that can address these deficiencies, we will lose to teams that can play D at any level. We would have lost to the Bucks if they didn't keep shooting themselves in the foot and despite Cleveland do everything possible to lose the game, they still KILLED us on the boards and had enough second chances to eek out a win.
Also, I too have been trying to watch our guys out there in Denver and besides Felton, they are all looking good. Gallo had a bad first game but really showcased what he could do last night even though he missed a KEY free throw at the end of the game!!
Look, we are going to see this crap until the Knicks go out and get defensive MINDED players and players that can rip down rebounds! Not necessarily Dwight but guys that can scrap and bang. Jeffries is not the answer either and if he is going to share time at the 5 and 4...... We are dead!!!!

 

[Weissenberg]

You gotta say that the awful shooting of Toney Douglas and Shawne Williams probably killed the game for us. Douglas needs to know how to be more consistent. He'll have games like Wednesday night where he looks like a solid 6th man on a championship team, and then he'll have games like tonight where he...well...

This is actually the most recognizable problem with the young part of our roster, these guys are simply not enough consistent, how many games have we seen where Walker, Douglas or Williams have done a great job moving the ball, firing sharply from downtown, driving to the basket and remaining a solid part of the team? A lot, but the problem is you never know are they going to keep playing well and you simpy can't expect they are, you just can't count on them every time when needed. And therefore MDA has to keep an eye on these young players and react systematically giving them chance and some more minutes if they're doing well, he has to use the fact they are high at that moment.

 

[AmareForPresident]

Look, we are going to see the crap until the Knicks go out and get defensive MINDED players and players that can rip down rebounds!

We NEED to get a defensive minded coach,our players all show potential that they can become SOLID defenders if only they had a coach that taught defense.

 

[Weissenberg]

We NEED to get a defensive minded coach,our players all show potential that they can become SOLID defenders if only they had a coach that taught defense.

Agreed, you're absolutely right, I won't get surprised if Gallo and Wilson will play much more efficiently on their current team, we have a lot of talented players who are also able to play well defensively, but Mike has never been a defensive oriented coach.

 

[skisloper]

Limited, 1trick pony flopper. Only getting a little carry over burn in DEN bc the man who birthed him, Celebrity Coach Mike Dantoni put some Italian moles with.bloodlines to Gallo.in Denver.

Gallo"s jig is up.

I disagree with you......I think Gallo coached in the right way will be a star....he always played alot of minutes but never ran an offense thru him...he would sit on the arch just watching.....

similiar to our guys last night sitting in the paint waiting for a rebound as I guy made a wide open 3 pointer....beauty was when they missed we still did not get the rebound...

I give coach 3 more games...I do not care if we lose as long as we have energy....what th F is wrong with us

 

[Oldtimer]

Knicks/Denver

I watched the Knicks play Cleveland and then the Nuggets against Portland. I thoroughly enjoyed the latter game.

Melo is a great offensive player and it is hard to argue, certainly at this early stage, that he is not worth the price we paid. However, I tend to agree with HomeTheatreGuy and think that he is not going to improve us in any meaningful way and that his and Amar'e's contracts are going to price us out of elite status going forward. Although flawed, I liked the "team" we had and the direction we were going with that team. We needed a defensive big and a different point guard. We did not need an offensive juggernaut.

Billups may be the best part of the deal. I never liked Felton. He thinks he is better than he is. He is not doing much in Denver. I miss Chandler, Gallo and Moz. I enjoyed the Denver game.

By the way, Gallo is getting some prime time play and George Karl is not his god father.

 

[moneyg]

I'm reading these posts and I am speechless! When a few members spoke out against the Melo trade stating that scoring wasn't the issue, defense and rebounding was; we were nailed! We warned everyone that we were small to begin with and didn't have anyone that could really scrap for the ball so we should be looking to surround Amare with players that can defend and rebound. Again, we were nailed.
Before the Knicks made this trade we were one of the top scoring teams in the NBA, yet we were one of the worst defensive teams in the NBA. Now, we trade Gallo (was arguably our best defender) and Mozgov, a 7' 1" project that wasn't consistent, still a little "clunky" but needed time to develop; there was tremendous upside to him. For a super star scorer who doesn't play a lick of defense in Melo... Sheldon Williams, a undersized 5 who barley played in Denver. Renaldo Balkman, an undersized 4 that didn't play in Denver.... Starting to see a trend here???
Now we have EXACTLY what we were warned about; a 1 dimensional team that has NO ONE who can bang the boards or play any defense whatsoever.
Until Walsh brings in a few more complimentary pieces that can address these deficiencies, we will lose to teams that can play D at any level. We would have lost to the Bucks if they didn't keep shooting themselves in the foot and despite Cleveland do everything possible to lose the game, they still KILLED us on the boards and had enough second chances to eek out a win.
Also, I too have been trying to watch our guys out there in Denver and besides Felton, they are all looking good. Gallo had a bad first game but really showcased what he could do last night even though he missed a KEY free throw at the end of the game!!
Look, we are going to see this crap until the Knicks go out and get defensive MINDED players and players that can rip down rebounds! Not necessarily Dwight but guys that can scrap and bang. Jeffries is not the answer either and if he is going to share time at the 5 and 4...... We are dead!!!!

we were dead before and we are dead now as long as this coach remains here


im sick and tired of people looking at individual player scoring for and individual game when we put up like 110 pts and blam it on an off night from a bench player...

thats not the facts.. what r we suppose to score 130pts to win a goddamn game...

it more than just the players.. it the coach's strategy..

chicago doesnt have that good of defenders./. top 3 and noah was gone for a bit ..

paul pierce and ray allen were not good defenders either.. doc and tom tibs got them to play defense..

and we r blaming our scoring on a bad night by a bench player or two..please ..give me a break...

walsh can bring in a ton of good defenders.. if they r not that good on the offensive end they will never get playing time.... its that simple


this caoch has to go...

 

[AmareForPresident]

we were dead before and we are dead now as long as this coach remains here


im sick and tired of people looking at individual player scoring for and individual game when we put up like 110 pts and blam it on an off night from a bench player...

thats not the facts.. what r we suppose to score 130pts to win a goddamn game...

it more than just the players.. it the coach's strategy..

chicago doesnt have that good of defenders./. top 3 and noah was gone for a bit ..

paul pierce and ray allen were not good defenders either.. doc and tom tibs got them to play defense..

and we r blaming our scoring on a bad night by a bench player or two..please ..give me a break...

walsh can bring in a ton of good defenders.. if they r not that good on the offensive end they will never get playing time.... its that simple


this caoch has to go...

Agreed this is just ridiculous now.

 

[Blas]

Wasn't crawford a horrible defender?

Wasn't crawford traded to a defensive team (Atlanta)?

Wasn't crawford STILL a horrible defender during his tenure there?

Not always the coach.

Karl is known to have defensive schemes, yet Melo has NEVER been an average defender.

Argument can go both ways.

You can blame the coach or the players.

But in the end its those players on the floor that need to show hustle and effort.

Last night except for Billups you didn't see ANY of that. So whose fault is that? The only thing you can do to players who don't show effort is the bench them. So you guys would be ok if D'antoni benched our stars because they didn't play with effort last night?

Doubt it.

 

[CoolClyde]

Cavaliers??? Again???

OK so we lost to the worst team in the league... again.
could not make defensive stops when it counted in 4Q... again.
outrebounded... again.

no surprises here. As horrible as this loss was, there are a few things to take into consideration:

brand new team, no cohesion on defensive end, to be expected when the coach does not emphasize D first and foremost.
coach does not use more than 8-9 men per game, why would you expect him to give Sheldon Williams a chance?
however, props to Pringles for employing Balkmania for defensive presence, the team was +15 (in 8 minutes!) with him on court. I could see and feel the Knicks comeback twice when Balkman was in.

Chauncy Ballsup >> Raymond Feltip. Better shooter and able to take over the game at will. I was impressed, he almost singlehandedly willed Knicks to win, and would have if team rebounded in 4Q. the man needs time to know and find his new teammates. Maybe Pringles could use Anthony Carter and Sheldon W to give Chauncey some comfort in familiarity? nope.

STUD and Ballsup seemed to be only Knicks scoring in 4Q. how is that possible?

Tony Chill is the difference maker. When he has a good game, Knicks win. when he has 2 points in 30 minutes, there's no chance. inconsistency blows.

Laundry Folds folded laundry in 2nd half. disappeared. again.
Caramelo had a great first half, then what? I just don't know.

Tufiaf played some good D, but 2 points in 26 minutes? the man's gotta do something offensively, c'mon!

Shawnuf Williams with a piss-poor game. 2 points in 22 min? ugh.

Knicks allowed Cavs to score and rebound effortlessly:
Ramona Sessions seemed to fly into the paint at will.
JJ Hick-son and Antawn Jami-son owned the paint on the rebound tip, 28 bounds between them.
Knicks outbounded 62-42? horrid!! no more stats needed!

I can say this, Jared Girafferies can do no worse.

If Antoni's going to keep short rotation for rest of season, we're f*cked.

oh sh*t. Miami.... damntoni!

 

[hometheaterguy]

Agreed, you're absolutely right, I won't get surprised if Gallo and Wilson will play much more efficiently on their current team, we have a lot of talented players who are also able to play well defensively, but Mike has never been a defensive oriented coach.

I will concede that the system does play a piece but they are both dependent on each other. We had a defensive minded coach in Larry Brown and yet his system couldn't do Jack because the players he had to implement the system with were not defensive minded players. Yet his system took the 76s to the finals and helped Charlotte become a damn good defensive team (they just couldn't score).
D'Antoni's system was successful in Phoenix because he had guys that knew how to play some defense. D'Antoni's system is fragile and heavily depends on the right blend of players. I just watched the Cav's game again and our best rebounder, STAT, was hanging out on the perimeter because he had to stay with Antwan... If STAT is going to play the 4, then we need to replace his rebounding skills! Dan Gadzuric will be available and I think he could be that piece. We do not need him to score and we do not need to run the game through him; we would just need him to rip down boards and block an occasional shot.
D'Antoni's is NOT a defensive minded coach but he does push his players to defend; it's just that the players we have do not play D... That is it!!
You guys can blame the coach all you want but it is a balance and the system depends on the players and vice versa...
Years ago I red countless threads here on how we needed to bag Brown because all he cared about was D and we needed Isiah coaching because he was an offensive minded coach that would really bring out the scoring potential of our players....

 

[STAT1]

we were dead before and we are dead now as long as this coach remains here


im sick and tired of people looking at individual player scoring for and individual game when we put up like 110 pts and blam it on an off night from a bench player...

thats not the facts.. what r we suppose to score 130pts to win a goddamn game...

it more than just the players.. it the coach's strategy..

chicago doesnt have that good of defenders./. top 3 and noah was gone for a bit ..

paul pierce and ray allen were not good defenders either.. doc and tom tibs got them to play defense..

and we r blaming our scoring on a bad night by a bench player or two..please ..give me a break...

walsh can bring in a ton of good defenders.. if they r not that good on the offensive end they will never get playing time.... its that simple


this caoch has to go...

Don't misinterpret my intention behind my last post, I agree with you I also favor having a defensive minded coach. But the reality is we don't have one and DW is invested into the one we do have, so when there are guys that aren't hitting their shots on the team it hurts us because they're not playing the kind of defense to offset an offshooting night from a few of their rotation mainstays.

 

[Weissenberg]

I didn't say that all we need is a fully defensive minded coach, however what I did want to say is we need some balance. I never denied we're able to become one of the greatest offensive powers in the league, but I would like to make clear that despite having the 2nd highest scoring average this season we still have many problems with winning against the teams we're supposed to defeat, which means there is probably something wrong with our defense. I simply don't trust and don't believe Pringles anymore, according to me and many other fans his time as the Knicks head coach is up. I expect after this season the team president will organize a press conference and inform the public opinion that the cooperation with the current coach is done. Mike got all the players he needed, there is no excuse he could give now. Our situation should be clear, better results or discharge. That's what I think and that's the solution I stand for.

 

[la2ny]

Kendrick Perkins/Shane Battier anyone?

 

[hometheaterguy]

Kendrick Perkins/Shane Battier anyone?

????
To sign this off season? Or to try to trade for now?

 

[STAT1]

Kendrick Perkins/Shane Battier anyone?

Would love both of them, but we probably won't be able to get either.

 

[hometheaterguy]

I didn't say that all we need is a fully defensive minded coach, however what I did want to say is we need some balance. I never denied we're able to become one of the greatest offensive powers in the league, but I would like to make clear that despite having the 2nd highest scoring average this season we still have many problems with winning against the teams we're supposed to defeat, which means there is probably something wrong with our defense. I simply don't trust and don't believe Pringles anymore, according to me and many other fans his time as the Knicks head coach is up. I expect after this season the team president will organize a press conference and inform the public opinion that the cooperation with the current coach is done. Mike got all the players he needed, there is no excuse he could give now. Our situation should be clear, better results or discharge. That's what I think and that's the solution I stand for.

So, the fact that this current GM and Coach inherited the mess that Isiah left. They essentially tanked 2 seasons to shed these contracts and within 3 years was able to get rid of all the bad contracts and this is actually the first year that D'Antoni is able to bring in players... Not to mention that they made a blockbuster mega trade smack in the middle of the season.... Also, this team has played together twice and practiced together once.... And lastly, they (Walsh and D'Antoni) made it very clear that they realize they are small because of the recent trades and that they need to make a few more moves to solidify this roster and they plan on brining in another star... Depsite all this you still feel that after the lost to the Cavs, it is time to make a coaching change????? Thank GOD you are not the GM of a pee wee team never mind the Knicks!!!! Knee Jerk reactions like that is what prevents a team from ever finding success!

 

[Arod2k9]

Coaching rebounding? Are you for real? If you want to have a go at D'Antoni then sure have a go at him for not ever having the best defensive players, have a go at him for losing games he shouldn't but not coaching rebounding? GTFO. Rebounding is mostly size and the rest instinct, you can't coach where a ball is going to fall after it hits the rim, it's all down to the trajectory of the shot which is impossible to read and anticipate that fast. You react AFTER the event not before it so how can it be coached?

We don't have the players to rebound, THAT ISN'T HIS FAULT.

What the hell you mean is not his fault? Our idiot coach refuses to play a big lineup and this is going on for 3 years now. Walsh has giving him the tools in Milicic, Mozgov, Anthony Randolph and D'antoni's refusal to play any big man deserves him to get fire. Our coach is in love with small forwards defending centers. This lost is all on our coach and I won't forgive him for his treatment on AR who didn't deserve it. Let me see the guy is 6'11 and 7'6 wingspan and doesn't play. The guy runs the floor, has handle, but everytime he made a mistake our coach went nuts on the bench. Now we have Shelden Williams and he doesn't play either. No ****ing excuses!

 

[moneyg]

Don't misinterpret my intention behind my last post, I agree with you I also favor having a defensive minded coach. But the reality is we don't have one and DW is invested into the one we do have, so when there are guys that aren't hitting their shots on the team it hurts us because they're not playing the kind of defense to offset an offshooting night from a few of their rotation mainstays.

pay this son of a %$@!&* off and move on.. Dolan has enough money to waste..

I hate to say it but i hope Isaih.. yeah isaih..... is telling dolan to get rid of this dude...

and i hope Jim's listening on this one

 

[AmareForPresident]

So, the fact that this current GM and Coach inherited the mess that Isiah left. They essentially tanked 2 seasons to shed these contracts and within 3 years was able to get rid of all the bad contracts and this is actually the first year that D'Antoni is able to bring in players... Not to mention that they made a blockbuster mega trade smack in the middle of the season.... Also, this team has played together twice and practiced together once.... And lastly, they (Walsh and D'Antoni) made it very clear that they realize they are small because of the recent trades and that they need to make a few more moves to solidify this roster and they plan on brining in another star... Depsite all this you still feel that after the lost to the Cavs, it is time to make a coaching change????? Thank GOD you are not the GM of a pee wee team never mind the Knicks!!!! Knee Jerk reactions like that is what prevents a team from ever finding success!

We couldn't even get one stop in the 4th quarter.