Talks finally going the right direction...

Tea bag philosophy

Oldtimer said:

There was an aphorism on a Salada tea tag that I recall noting many years ago -- "Diplomacy is the art of letting the other person have your way." The owners can achieve a settlement by appearing to "concede" on some system issues. It will permit the players to save some face.

Click to expand...

thanks for the tea bag philosophy, Oldtimer. your posts make a lot of sense.
I feel like I've been tea bagged this entire lockout.

let's hope this 50/50 concession leads to a settlement. guess we'll know soon enough.

Oldtimer: From an individual player's perspective, the system issues are important. Each player has an interest in maximizing his contract amount and the duration of his contract. But those issues are somewhat less important to the players as a group because the same BRI percentage will be distributed to the players as a group no matter what the individual contracts may be. Every Jerome James or Eddy Curry wants a long term guaranteed contract. But if they underperform and no longer deserve what their contracts require, they are not taking money from the owners, they are taking it from the players as a group.............................................................................................................................................................................................Are u actually saying if a owners (dum-dum GM) over pay a player, or trade for an expensive player that dont mix well with the headcoach this should be charged to the players as a group??? did I get that right?

Why the Players, as a group, pay for an Eddy Curry.

Last year under the then current CBA the players, as a group, received 57% of the BRI. It turned out to be something like $2.176 billion.

If you added up all the money the players received last year under their individual contracts and it was less than $2.176 billion, then under the CBA the owners had to fork over the difference to the Players' Union for proportional distribution to the players. If the players would have received more than $2.176 billion, then the owners would have taken the difference from the escrowed (8%) contract amounts that had been withheld from the players. In either case the players as a group received $2.176 billion. Eddy Curry took his $10M. If there were no $10M going to Curry, the $10M would have gone to, or not been deducted from the escrowed amounts of, the other players. The players as a group, in effect, paid Eddy Curry.

I know I may get flamed for stating what I feel is obvious but I think the NBA players are not accepting the best deal in all of American Pro-Sports because of race. In my opinion the players have built up an inferiority complex that is not allowing them to compromise with the "plantation owners" because they feel if they do they will be selling out. By the numbers there is no reason why the players union would not accept the current offer and I can only conclude that other factors are at play. Listening to the rhetoric and looking at the posturing I can only conclude race has to be a factor.

Dude, please...

edit: we passed the deadline, nothing happened, the world haven't colapsed yet, both sides are still talking and this board still works...

Dzwonsson said:

Dude, please...

Click to expand...

Please dude? Ok...

"To present that in the context of 'take it or leave it,' in our view, that is not good faith," Kessler told the paper on Monday night before the union announced Tuesday it would not accept Stern's offer. "Instead of treating the players like partners, they're treating them like plantation workers."

Click to expand...

There was the "pointing" incident where David Stern reportedly wagged his finger at Dwyane Wade, who redressed Stern, "You're not pointing your finger at me. I'm not your child." The white authority figure trying to put the young, virile black man in his place? The only word missing here is "uppity."

Click to expand...

And then there was Rev. Jackson's comments regarding Gumbels comments a few weeks back:

?Bryant certainly exposed a subtext of tension,? Jackson said. ?He pulled the cover off a very sensitive issue: how we handle the race dimension of it. And I hope we would not have a my-way-or-the-highway attitude about this.?

Click to expand...

More on racial subtext:

Once race becomes a factor in the discussion, it begins to tinge perceptions of everything and everyone.

Spurs owner Peter Holt, who heads the owners? labor relations committee, has been one of Rick Perry?s top 10 donors the past decade, giving the Texas governor and Republican presidential candidate more than $500,000 in political contributions.

A sports owner making contributions to the governor of his franchise?s state might be seen as logical self-interest. But through a racial prism, it can be viewed as Holt being pals with a guy whose family?s hunting camp had the n-word painted on a rock near the entrance for years.

Clippers owner Donald Sterling is a real-estate mogul who owns 10,000 apartment units in Los Angeles and Orange counties, so his being the subject of a housing-discrimination suit might not be a huge surprise. But when former employees deposed in discrimination cases say Sterling did not want to rent to blacks or Latinos because they ?smell? ? claims his lawyers call ?absurd? ? that could make his African American players wonder what he really sees across the negotiating table.

And when jilted Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert wrote an open letter after LeBron James bolted Cleveland for Miami in 2010, Gilbert could have been an owner rallying his deflated customer base. But through a racial prism, Gilbert looked like a white owner labeling a black employee who honored his seven-year contract an ingrate ? or, as Jackson said in the wake of Gilbert?s letter, ?a runaway slave.?

?Gilbert unleashed a whole body of language on him that was so violent and so threatening,? Jackson said Thursday afternoon. ?That?s why I used the language I did.?

He added: ?I don?t know how widespread it is, but there is a sense of ownership in [NBA] contracts. It?s not just that you have an amiable, mutually agreed-upon contract. There?s a power attached to the person who gives one out.?

I asked Jackson if he felt Gumbel owed Stern, who is clearly doing the owners? bidding, an apology.

?I think both of them should have a conversation,? he said. ?Bryant is a very level-headed person and very good journalist. I don?t know what pushed him to that level. But I do know we need not massage that pain; we need to resolve it.?

Click to expand...

I am not making any of this up so don't get mad at me. I am a liberal to the bone so believe me, I am not racist in the slightest. (if you looked at my wife and daughters skin you would know this) I just honestly think that when you have one side that is 99% white and one side that is 90% black things can get twisted. I think we are at that point and the players are afraid to to take yes for an answer as a result.

Again, the offer is the best of any pro-sport in the US and yet they can't accept it? As Oldtimer pointed out no deal no matter how favorable would recoup the loses a lockout of the entire season would bring hence the players are not acting in a rational way.

I know about some voices involved in talks trying to find connection between racial belonging and results/manner of negotations so far and believe me, I'm not getting mad at you and I would never suggest you could be a racist. I just don't want to start a racial connected thread on this board, because it could lead to a fight where someone intentionally implies white forumers support white owners and black forumers stand behind black players due to their racial belonging...

Dzwonsson said:

I know about some voices involved in talks trying to find connection between racial belonging and results/manner of negotations so far and believe me, I'm not getting mad at you and I would never suggest you could be a racist. I just don't want to start a racial connected thread on this board, because it could lead to a fight where someone intentionally implies white forumers support white owners and black forumers stand behind black players due to racial belonging...

Click to expand...

I feel you and no worries. I just thought it was worth mentioning but I def. don't want to start a race debate.

I think it's more about egos than anything race related.

And that's not saying that black athletes have big egos, but that everyone involved does. Successful billionairre businessmen and pro athletes are obviously going to have somewhat inflated egos and that is getting in the way.

The players don't want to feel like they are giving and giving, but the NBA has set its bottom line and can't be seen to go below that due to weakness.

I think we're almost there though, I think they'll settle at 50/50 with a slightly improved offer on the system to the players.

I think we have a deal. Of course, it was not officially announced by any of both parties, but I definately see some signs of the lockout nearing its end. Firstly, both sides sound way more optimistic compared to the atmosphere a week ago, when the league gave the union an ultimatum. Secondly, both sides are saying they understand the other side isn't entirely satisfied with the revised proposal, however this proposal hasn't been immidiately rejected by any side, which could mean the progress that was made over the last two day is more or less acceptable to both the league and the union. And last but not least, the league starts talking about some details of the new season, we already know that if the players accept the deal there will be a 72 games season starting od December 15.

Of course, we don't know what are the details of the revised proposal, but I guess the players moved on the economics and accepted the 50/50 split and the league made enough concessions on the system (probably on the mid-level exception and sign-and-trade contracts).

So, let's hope we'll see some handshakes somewhere next week.
:gony:

It's going to get done. The owners made some concessions on the system issues, I don't think it was much because Hunter only mentioned the mini MLE going from 2.5M/2yrs to 3M/3yrs but it was a gesture that the union can save some face with. The players played it down to the wire trying to make the owners blink but they know their backs are against the wall, lose more paychecks and come back to a deal worse than the current one.

I will be stunned if the players don't go for this deal.

tiger0330 said:

It's going to get done. The owners made some concessions on the system issues, I don't think it was much because Hunter only mentioned the mini MLE going from 2.5M/2yrs to 3M/3yrs but it was a gesture that the union can save some face with. The players played it down to the wire trying to make the owners blink but they know their backs are against the wall, lose more paychecks and come back to a deal worse than the current one.

I will be stunned if the players don't go for this deal.

Click to expand...

I wouldnt be stun....we are talking about a long period of time (10 years).
The league/owners acountability in these negotiation must be
recorded with a lost season of not having the best interest for
self, the next owner, the players, the agents, and their fans.
The players union will get a much better proposal from the courts.

Im glad u change the direction of this post b/c some members are
to young to understand the power of race-issues, todays German
people best comment is "no-comment" when someone brings up
the topic of Adolf Hitler Holocaust.

Dzwonsson said:

I think we have a deal. Of course, it was not officially announced by any of both parties, but I definately see some signs of the lockout nearing its end. Firstly, both sides sound way more optimistic compared to the atmosphere a week ago, when the league gave the union an ultimatum. Secondly, both sides are saying they understand the other side isn't entirely satisfied with the revised proposal, however this proposal hasn't been immidiately rejected by any side, which could mean the progress that was made over the last two day is more or less acceptable to both the league and the union. And last but not least, the league starts talking about some details of the new season, we already know that if the players accept the deal there will be a 72 games season starting od December 15.

Of course, we don't know what are the details of the revised proposal, but I guess the players moved on the economics and accepted the 50/50 split and the league made enough concessions on the system (probably on the mid-level exception and sign-and-trade contracts).

So, let's hope we'll see some handshakes somewhere next week.
:gony:

Click to expand...

I really dont care to much about the BRI 57% or 47% to the players
b/c that will not stop the NBA from having the best basketball players
worldwide....its the super luxury tax and cutting the MLE in half which
will stop me from being a NBA fan.
I got a custom to wanting one, two, or three stacked teams in a
league....Green Bay Packers dynamic offense/defense.
The Giants vs Green Bay Packers (week 13) 12-4 at 4:00pm Giant Stadium

Kiyaman said:

Green Bay Packers dynamic offense/defense.

Click to expand...

they allowed 38 points last week... dynamic????

paris401 said:

they allowed 38 points last week... dynamic????

Click to expand...

this is how far the mightly have fallen... we are arguing about football....

Well, to be absolutely honest I am not going to stop watching the Knicks because of the mid-level exception (fact: under prior CBA, only 3 players per season received more than $5M salary using mid-level exception), sign-and-trade (fact: over last CBA, only 4 sign-and-trades by taxpayers that new rule would have prohibited) or the split of the BRI.
I am not on the owner's side because I think what they are proposing is necessary. I don't care whether the NBA will become more competitive or not, I just believe the owners are doing much more toward getting this deal done and ending the lockout. I'm aware many fans say the players moved all the way down to reach a compromise and they have never asked for more than they had under the expired CBA.
However a lot of things changed since 1999, there are new teams, new owners, a new way of managing an organization, which means new demands and new goals. The players moved on the economics and the owners moved on the system, let's sign some papers, shake some hands and get back to real work. I know the players keep saying the NBA proposal didn't meet their demands, but the owners are disappointed too. But, if you look at some details of the new proposal, don't you really think it's worth a deal? Here are some concessions the NBA made:

- more mid-levels than 2005 CBA: $5M for non-taxpayers, $3M for taxpayers, $2.5M for room teams;
- more cap exceptions for teams who are not taxpayers;
- projected tax level ranges from $70M-$85M over next 6 years; more than enough money to keep teams together;
- new trade rules to promote more player movement;
- projected max salaries range from $13M to $19M and growing;
- increased minimum team salary - from 75% of cap to 90%;
- player-friendly changes for restricted free agents: qualifying offers higher and 100% guaranteed, shorter match period for offer;
- ability to stretch waived player’s salary frees up more money for teams to spend on free agents;
- players retain full Bird rights;
- repeat tax rates apply only when team is taxpayer 4 out of 5 years (not 3 out of 5).

And what were the players/agents doing? They were spreading some false rumors about a D-League clause and no new concessions, however in fact they didn't know any details of the new proposal (it was before the league went public).

baited breath

well, i'm officially holding my breath until Monday, when we find out if NBPA accepts the owner's final (?) ultimatum. if agreed, everyone gets back to work and we'll have a 70 game season. acceptable. if not, look for decertification process to begin, and a lost season. there are 7 "super agents" who want their players to make more money more money, the true 1% who are holding up the works so millions of people don't have basketball here and now. c'mon now! stop the racism! (wtf?)

Well, if they're going to sumbmit a petition for decertification, many players will move overseas, I heard some rumors yesterday Al Horford already contacted a Spanish team considering if he might sign there during the lockout... and he's definately not the only NBA player who will pack his bags. Parker, Batum, Gallo, Ibaka, Turiaf and many other well known players already found their spot in Europe.

edit: some wise words fired: By some combination of mendacity and greed, the agents who are looking out for themselves rather than their clients are trying to scuttle the deal. They're engaged in what appears to be an orchestrated Twitter campaign and a series of interviews that are designed to deny the economic realities of the proposal.

Wise Words Fired

The "wise words" referenced in Dzwonsson's edited post, came, I believe, from Charles Grantham, a predecessor to Billy Hunter as head of the players' union. One of his points is that the agents have 25 or30 years to make up losses, while many players have only a couple of years left.

Decertification is much too dangerous. According to David Stern in an ESPN clip, if there were decertification then all the guaranteed gontracts, to the tune of $4 billion, are gone because subject to the continued existence of the union.

From the players' perspective there is perhaps a lot not to like about the current proposal. It would be irresponsible, however, for the union not to let all the players vote and, I am afraid, foolish for the players to reject the proposal

NBA commissioner David Stern and deputy commissioner Adam Silver will be answering all questions concerning the revised CBA proposal live on Twitter, starting at 7 PM on http://twitter.com/#!/nba .
I personally don't have a Twitter account, but if you guys have some questions to ask, go ahead and ask on behalf of the KO board.