A Tough But Accurate Rebuttal

This is something I posted in response to Knuckles 2k2 who tried to explain his vision of what the Knicks offense would be if we kept STAT, AR and Gallo. I attempted to correct him in no uncertain terms, maybe a bit harshly. But my response also thoroughly explains why it is so important we have Paul on this team, in this offense, even if we must give up either Gallo or AR:



Bra, what the ***k was that nonsense?? Have you even seen coach's offense???

Listen, in coach's offense we run the pick and roll w the PG and PF at the top of the key, two swings on either wing and the C down low. The PG is the focal point of the offense!! The more dynamic the PG, the better this offense runs!! The PF sets a narsty pick and you have CP3 coming off it and becoming the threat that we know he could be w the options he then has:

He can pass back to Amare if his man helps. If he's freed by the pick and one of the wing defenders comes over to help, he passes it to either Gallo or Azzy or whoever is at the 2, for the open three. If no one helps he only has the C to beat if he comes over, the pass goes to (who would actually be starting, not AR) Turiaf or Oke. If the center stays home -- lay-up. I've seen Nash do this with aplomb too many times in this offense. CP3 would do this and more. Felton would do a competent job as well. The offense would never stagnate.

Other than that it's just up-tempo, unbeatable transition torture for the other team. A quick pass to Gallo w 4 sec into the shot-clock for a three. Paul comes down and just pulls up, or beats his man, attracts help and kick for an open two or three, usually a three. Give or take a few odd iso's for STAT, Gallo and whoever is at the two.

That's it~! This offense is simple, yet unstoppable

All that mumbo-jumbo you typed up there... Man you aught to be ashamed of yo' self.

It is all about having the best players, not role players.. CP3 would dominate w coach on the Knicks and make everyone around him that much better. The fact that I have to explain this to someone is ridiculous.

Oh and numbers are important. That's how you WIN! It's all about what each player you have can bring to the table.

CP3's OR Felton's numbers would either enable us to dominate, ala Phoenix Suns circa mid to late 2k, or what we've seen from this team with Nate, Marbury and Duhon, who couldn't run this offense the past few years.

CP3 three would bring his HOF numbers to this system. Nash didn't have numbers like his before working w coach, neither does Felton. This guy is special. He's done it on a mediocre team in NO for five years. HE made all of his teammates better.

Call me crazy but I want that for this team.



I also posted some numbers, comparing CP3 to Magic and Isiah, to bolster my arguement:


He is a lock for the HOF. I think he was better than Nash when he was winning MVPs. This guy is like Magic or Isiah. Trust:

CP3

Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
05-06 NOK 78 78 36.0 0.430 0.282 0.847 0.8 4.3 5.1 7.8 2.2 0.1 2.35 2.79 16.1
06-07 NOK 64 64 36.8 0.437 0.350 0.818 0.8 3.5 4.4 8.9 1.8 0.0 2.52 2.41 17.3
07-08 NOH 80 80 37.6 0.488 0.369 0.851 0.8 3.2 4.0 11.6 2.7 0.0 2.51 2.31 21.1
08-09 NOH 78 78 38.5 0.503 0.364 0.868 0.9 4.7 5.5 11.0 2.8 0.1 2.96 2.72 22.8
09-10 NOH 45 45 38.0 0.493 0.409 0.847 0.4 3.8 4.2 10.7 2.1 0.2 2.49 2.62 18.7
Career -- 345 345 37.3 0.473 0.353 0.848 0.8 3.9 4.7 10.0 2.4 0.1 2.57 2.57 19.3

Magic

1979-80 20 LAL NBA 77 36.3 6.5 12.3 .530 0.1 0.4 .226 4.9 6.0 .810 2.2 5.6 7.7 7.3 2.4 0.5 4.0 2.8 18.0
1980-81 21 LAL NBA 37 37.1 8.4 15.9 .532 0.1 0.5 .176 4.6 6.1 .760 2.7 5.9 8.6 8.6 3.4 0.7 3.9 2.7 21.6
1981-82 22 LAL NBA 78 77 38.3 7.1 13.3 .537 0.1 0.4 .207 4.2 5.6 .760 3.2 6.4 9.6 9.5 2.7 0.4 3.7 2.9 18.6
1982-83 23 LAL NBA 79 79 36.8 6.5 11.8 .548 0.0 0.3 .000 3.8 4.8 .800 2.7 5.9 8.6 10.5 2.2 0.6 3.8 2.5 16.8
1983-84 24 LAL NBA 67 66 38.3 6.6 11.6 .565 0.1 0.4 .207 4.3 5.3 .810 1.5 5.9 7.3 13.1 2.2 0.7 4.6 2.5 17.6
1984-85 25 LAL NBA 77 77 36.1 6.5 11.7 .561 0.1 0.5 .189 5.1 6.0 .843 1.2 5.0 6.2 12.6 1.5 0.3 4.0 2.0 18.3
1985-86 26 LAL NBA 72 70 35.8 6.7 12.8 .526 0.1 0.6 .233 5.3 6.0 .871 1.2 4.7 5.9 12.6 1.6 0.2 3.8 1.8 18.8
1986-87 27 LAL NBA 80 80 36.3 8.5 16.4 .522 0.1 0.5 .205 6.7 7.9 .848 1.5 4.8 6.3 12.2 1.7 0.5 3.8 2.1 23.9
1987-88 28 LAL NBA 72 70 36.6 6.8 13.8 .492 0.2 0.8 .196 5.8 6.8 .853 1.2 5.0 6.2 11.9 1.6 0.2 3.7 2.0 19.6
1988-89 29 LAL NBA 77 77 37.5 7.5 14.8 .509 0.8 2.4 .314 6.7 7.3 .911 1.4 6.4 7.9 12.8 1.8 0.3 4.1 2.2 22.5
1989-90 30 LAL NBA 79 79 37.2 6.9 14.4 .480 1.3 3.5 .384 7.2 8.1 .890 1.6 5.0 6.6 11.5 1.7 0.4 3.7 2.1 22.3
1990-91 31 LAL NBA 79 79 37.1 5.9 12.4 .477 1.0 3.2 .320 6.6 7.3 .906 1.3 5.6 7.0 12.5 1.3 0.2 4.0 1.9 19.4
1995-96 36 LAL NBA 32 9 29.9 4.3 9.2 .466 0.7 1.8 .379 5.4 6.3 .856 1.3 4.5 5.7 6.9 0.8 0.4 3.2 1.5 14.6
Career NBA 906 763 36.7 6.9 13.2 .520 0.4 1.2 .303 5.5 6.5 .848 1.8 5.5 7.2 11.2 1.9 0.4 3.9 2.3 19.5


He is on pace to have very similar career numbers to Magic.

In coach's system he would flourish unbelievably.

I don't know what he could do exactly. I don't want to get into hyperbole, but the possibilities make me giddy!

Okay, why not add Isiah's numbers too:

1981-82 20 DET NBA 72 72 33.8 6.3 14.8 .424 0.2 0.8 .288 4.2 6.0 .704 0.8 2.1 2.9 7.8 2.1 0.2 4.2 3.5 17.0
1982-83 21 DET NBA 81 81 38.2 9.0 19.0 .472 0.4 1.5 .288 4.5 6.4 .710 1.3 2.8 4.0 7.8 2.5 0.4 4.0 3.9 22.9
1983-84 22 DET NBA 82 82 36.7 8.2 17.7 .462 0.3 0.8 .338 4.7 6.5 .733 1.3 2.7 4.0 11.1 2.5 0.4 3.7 4.0 21.3
1984-85 23 DET NBA 81 81 38.1 8.0 17.4 .458 0.4 1.4 .257 4.9 6.1 .809 1.4 3.0 4.5 13.9 2.3 0.3 3.7 3.6 21.2
1985-86 24 DET NBA 77 77 36.2 7.9 16.2 .488 0.3 1.1 .310 4.7 6.0 .790 1.1 2.5 3.6 10.8 2.2 0.3 3.8 3.2 20.9
1986-87 25 DET NBA 81 81 37.2 7.7 16.7 .463 0.2 1.2 .194 4.9 6.4 .768 1.0 2.9 3.9 10.0 1.9 0.2 4.2 3.1 20.6
1987-88 26 DET NBA 81 81 36.1 7.7 16.6 .463 0.4 1.2 .309 3.8 4.9 .774 0.8 2.6 3.4 8.4 1.7 0.2 3.4 2.7 19.5
1988-89 27 DET NBA 80 76 36.6 7.1 15.3 .464 0.4 1.5 .273 3.6 4.4 .818 0.6 2.8 3.4 8.3 1.7 0.3 3.7 2.6 18.2
1989-90 28 DET NBA 81 81 37.0 7.1 16.3 .438 0.5 1.7 .309 3.6 4.7 .775 0.9 2.9 3.8 9.4 1.7 0.2 4.0 2.5 18.4
1990-91 29 DET NBA 48 46 34.5 6.0 13.9 .435 0.4 1.4 .292 3.7 4.8 .782 0.7 2.6 3.3 9.3 1.6 0.2 3.9 2.5 16.2
1991-92 30 DET NBA 78 78 37.4 7.2 16.2 .446 0.3 1.1 .291 3.7 4.8 .772 0.9 2.3 3.2 7.2 1.5 0.2 3.2 2.5 18.5
1992-93 31 DET NBA 79 79 37.0 6.7 15.9 .418 0.8 2.5 .308 3.5 4.8 .737 0.9 2.0 2.9 8.5 1.6 0.2 3.6 2.8 17.6
1993-94 32 DET NBA 58 56 30.2 5.5 13.2 .417 0.7 2.2 .310 3.1 4.4 .702 0.8 1.9 2.7 6.9 1.2 0.1 3.5 2.2 14.8
Career NBA 979 971 36.3 7.3 16.2 .452 0.4 1.4 .290 4.1 5.4 .759 1.0 2.6 3.6 9.3 1.9 0.3 3.8 3.0 19.2

He's on pace to have better numbers than Zeke!

CP3s career numbers are alot better than Nash's also. He's a guy who can do it system or not.

This guy is worth getting NOW!




This guy is great! Why would anyone not want to get him now. Walsh is right to put it all (except STAT) on the table. Seriously guys. He is the real deal. W Amare we would contend for many years, even if we were in salary cap trouble. Stop worrying! You do what you have to do to get the best players..

And don't let people on this board convince you that talks are "all over". Walsh will continue to make calls to NO brass and they will continue to say no, for a while. Until he finally stretches and gives them what they want.

Paul and NO's management don't like each other right now. Especially with Paul blabbing to the media, making it more difficult for them to maneuver. I could see him walking into the meeting today saying "I wanna get the heck outta here", and them saying "we can do something but you're making it more difficult by talking to the press". Then CP3 comes out today just like clock work and says everything is okay, and he likes the direction the team is going in. BS!

NO wants to move him. They want to rebuild and we have the pieces to help them do this.

Well first of all, the pick and roll with the PG and the PF is just one of many ways that this system can be run. They did that in Phoenix because that's what fit their roster. Ideally, Mike's system is run with five 6'9ish guys that can handle, shoot, and pass (close to what we have now with Gallo, Randolph, Amare, etc).

Obviously we would be a better team with CP3. Everyone knows he is one of the best, if not the best, PG's in the league and will most likely go down as one of the better PG's in league history. The problem is, it has no chance of happening. The Hornets aren't trading him anytime soon. It's waste of time to discuss something that has no chance of happening.

It think it does have a pretty good chance of happening. I haven't given up hope. Maybe this is because I haven't been a Knicks fan as long as you, lol. Some of you in here are pathetically hopeless about this team.. (shakes head)

Walsh is smart enough to figure this out. Believe me, it is not worth it to throw in the towel yet.

I agree with most of what you wrote. Chris Paul is a special player and would be perferct for our system. And I also agree that we shouldn't give up on the idea. Right now, I'm hopeful that we can gel as a team and get off to a decent start. If Paul is still unhappy at the trade deadline, we will defiantely be in play for him.

Haven't you noticed a pattern here? Knick fans/media obsess over Lebron for 2 years. That doesn't work, so they fill the void with the belief that Melo will come to the Knicks. That story gets old, so they move onto CP3. Wouldn't it be a lot more constructive to discuss our current team and our possibilities moving forward, rather than endless speculation about getting random star players that have no basis in truth?

JayJ44 said:

Haven't you noticed a pattern here? Knick fans/media obsess over Lebron for 2 years. That doesn't work, so they fill the void with the belief that Melo will come to the Knicks. That story gets old, so they move onto CP3. Wouldn't it be a lot more constructive to discuss our current team and our possibilities moving forward, rather than endless speculation about getting random star players that have no basis in truth?

Click to expand...

You mean our current 42 win team. There's not too much to discuss there.. With another great player there would be much to talk about.

I'm thinking closer to 45 wins. If you want to continue pretending that CP3 is coming to the Knicks, be my guest...

JayJ44 said:

I'm thinking closer to 45 wins. If you want to continue pretending that CP3 is coming to the Knicks, be my guest...

Click to expand...

I'm hopeful, wishful even. I'm not pretending.. You know know you would ***t all over yourself w glee if he came to NY, lol. Stop being so glum. :thumbsup:

decisions. decisions.

this kid who gets mad props as one of the best decision-makers in basketball totally bungles one the biggest decisions he had to make in his life and ties himself and most of his prime years to a sinking franchise for max length... then bitches about it and threatens to breach the contract he signed... one day he wakes up and wants to be a knick, the next day he wakes up and wants to be a magic, the next day he wakes up and he wants to stay a hornet... my girl has the same problem, it's called PMS.

There's no need to explain how the pick and roll works in D'Antoni's offense, or how good CP3 obviously is. What I want to know is, how does an opposing team stop three dudes who are 6'10'' and above, all having different skill sets.

I'm past the "oh [insert player] is a big name and here are the numbers he's put up so far" phase and I want to know what we have logistically. A 6'10'' player who is a sniper from outside who isn't a big, but has the height and length of a big; a 6'10'' power forward who may be the most offensively versatile and dominant big in the game, at least in the top 5, and he commands a double team in the paint; then throw in a 6'11-7'0'' player who can handle the ball both in transition and in a half court set, has a wingspan of 7'3'', and is one of the most freakishly athletic young players in he game, all of that equals a very special player who can make some noise if he works at it. Dwight Howard athleticism and height with the ability to shoot and handle the ball? How does that not make you say "holy shit."

Throw in a PG with Felton's speed, and how the **** do you guard the Knicks? Forget CP3 and what he brings to the table for a sec and explain how any given team is going to double STAT in the paint, contest Gallo's shots, and account for Randolph? The closest combo that I can remember that was constructed like that was the Hornets with Paul, West, Chandler, and Peja and they were obviously killing it when they all started 76 games or more. 2008 you subtract Chandler for 37 games and take his 8 & 8 as opposed to his 11 & 11 the year before and it's not quite the same team. But yet they still had Paul. Seems like the addition of a healthy Chandler actually made a difference for the team.

I don't want a team where the defense can pick and chose who they want to stop that night. "Do we let CP3 and Amar'e do their thing tonight and make sure everyone else doesn't beat us, or do we focus all of our attention on CP3 and STAT and force everyone else to beat us." As fas as I can tell right now, that situation is out of the defense's hands because of our height and the various skill sets among the giants on the team.

I guess we'll see how teams attack it during the preseason.

But I'm not changing my opinion until I see it consistently done on the court. Right now it looks like either Gallo is gonna have a munchkin on him and he's gonna be shooting over people, or STAT is going to see a lot of 1-on-1 situations if a big is vacating the paint to contest a shot by the 6'10'' dude getting ready to take a relatively open shot, and while all of this is going on who's boxing out Randolph and stopping him from flying all over the place? And if the other team decides to play big to combat our height...they're done in the transition game. How many teams out there have bigs, or anybody for that matter, that's going to run with Amar'e AND Randolph? Plus Randolph can lead the break (dunno about his decision making yet, but he's shown he has the handles to lead the break) and what's to stop Gallo from trailing for a transition 3 if need be?

I think there's a method to Donnie's madness. It's not like he traded for Randolph on a whim, we know he had a trade in place with GS in case LBJ didn't come to the Knicks. We didn't get Monta, or Reggie Williams, or Anthony Morrow, or even Torver, we got a dude who complements what we already have on the roster nicely, and that was before we got Felton who just makes the dynamic that much nicer.

It's not a championship team right now, but with some additions it is. Not additions by subtraction via trading away young players who are 21 and still developing, no, additions via the cap relief we have with Curry, Chandler, and Turiaf's contracts.

ronoranina said:

I'm hopeful, wishful even. I'm not pretending.. You know know you would ***t all over yourself w glee if he came to NY, lol. Stop being so glum. :thumbsup:

Click to expand...

Oh, I would do more than shit myself. I just don't wanna get set up for disappointment, especially if nothing is imminent. I find all this talk of star players boring because it has such a small chance of happening. We have a pretty good team this year. Personally, I would rather talk about that. But, whatever, to each his own.

Randolph himself said the same thing that I'm saying, just read the Q&A with him that's linked in the other thread:

Q.
How do you envision playing with Stoudemire in the post?

A. That’s going to be great. There’s a lot of highlights and stuff like that. Amar’e is a very dominant player, a great player. He’s going to take a lot of attention off me. That alone is going to make me a better player.

So some of the attention is going to be off of him in the post because of Amar'e...I assume the two bigs are paying attention to STAT...and if Randolph is in the paint he's going to get a look too...Gallo is 6 feet 10 ****ing inches tall with a wet jumpshot. If STAT is commanding a double team in the post....Randolph can make things happen in the post or the ball can get kicked out to Gallo who's apparently gonna have an imaginary hand in his face? Not many teams are constructed to go 3 deep at the height of 6'10''+ on the court at the same time...all doing different things.

One of the most basic aspects of team sports is "account for everyone on the field/court;" like I've stressed ad nasuem...how are teams going to do that against us? And is CP3 worth losing that unique "there's not much you can do" dynamic?

It's crazy to me how people can jizz on themselves over Durant who's the talent he is because of the combo of his height and skill set, and when we have two different players that would be on the court at the same time who have that combo of height and skill (not the same skill set but it's also not your typical 6'10'' skill set,) all I see is "**** it, trade one for CP3... get CP3 at any cost!!!" That seems to be the "I'm in love with big names" syndrome.