The Verdict is in...

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

jimkcchief88 said:
I made peace with the fact this team was going to stink back in the summer when we didn't get LJ. I made all these points back during the summer, got into it with TRILL, got called all out my name and everything else. Me I am not surprised at all how this team is playing. We lost 60% of our scoring and rebounding when we got rid of Lee/Harrington, and when I asked how we were replacing that the answer was: ohhh Gallo, ohhhh AR....., oooh STAT....

I was actually happy the way the team started out almost beating Portland and spanking the Bulls.

Now the team has fallen back to reality. We traded production for potential and so this is where we are. We traded one third tier PG(duhon) for another (felton), an all-star(lee) for the end of a bad teams bench(turiaf and co), and picked up 1a "superstar" from Phoenix. Not exactly a recipe for winning in a much improved East.

BTW, you wonder why AMARE is shooting so far away from the rim?? BECAUSE HE DOESN'T HOF PG NASH BREAKING DOWN THE DEFENSE AND CREATING EASY BUCKETS IN THE LANE. HELLO. I told y'all that during the off-season as well, that AMARE wouldn't be nearly as effective without NASH(see stockton/malone).

At this point, IT IS WHAT IT IS. This is a fun, young, athletic team to watch. THATS ABOUT IT. If they look down at thier jerseys and show a little KNICK pride, they may sneak into the playoffs. Forget about that 6th seed stuff OK. If not, they will struggle to win as many games as last year. At this point, just try to enjoy the season and hopefully David Lo-Pan(Walsh) can produce another big-free agent (Melo,CP3) moving forward. We have a decent foundation, but definatly far from being competetive.

And don't expect a leopard to change his spots either(D'ant). Mike loves that international style of play: no defense, no interior game, bigs camping outside and shooting doornobs, players whos names we can't pronounce.

Maybe this team will "gel", maybe not. But like I told y'all during the off-season: ANOTHER REBUILDING YEAR.

You know this is not the NFL right? 8 games is no where near long enough to draw any conclusions. Is Miami a 500 team? Are the Lakers going to win 70? Is New Orleans going to go undefeated?

I know you hope and pray the Knicks do bad just to scream I told you so evidenced by you basically saying..."I told you so" after 8 games. SMFH at these haters.

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

nyk_nyk said:
Wrong. This is exactly what myself and others are trying to point out. You can't be consistently successful with an offense that works ONLY if you hit a high % of long range 3pt shots. Only the best shooters can run a % of 45% and over for a whole season and its probably very few of them (I'll let u look that one up). This offense is either hit or miss. There's no middle ground for success.

If players aren't hitting shots on a particular night then the system should be adjusted don't you think? Hitting 3s has never been consistent with most players, this is proven by the way we categorize a good 3pt shooter (north of 35%) and a great one (north of 40%). However, when talking about overall FG%, players can easily hit the 40%-50% mark because the shots get easier closer to the basket.

Now do you understand?
__________________

Really? SO the Suns weren't consistently successful? I'd say 4 straight 50+ win seasons, back to back 60+ win seasons and two appearances in the Western Conference finals is pretty damn consistent.

Further SSOL is not about just 3 pointers...it's about taking quick open shots and attacking not giving the defense time to set up. Any coach in any system is going to tell their shooters to take the open shot...period!

Red · Nov 12, 2010

Ok Trill name the terms:

If by (when), if our record is (what) you'll be convinced its a system flaw. I'll abide by that.

Like if by the trade deadline if we aren't at least .500 he should go... or something like that. Name the terms, and i'll agree to disagree for now.

And everyone knew we lacked defense cause D Lee (the player) couldn't play it. That's why he wasn't valued. What we didn't want to admit was the offensive strategy is too flawed and inconsistent to be complimented by good D.

jimkcchief88 · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
You know this is not the NFL right? 8 games is no where near long enough to draw any conclusions. Is Miami a 500 team? Are the Lakers going to win 70? Is New Orleans going to go undefeated?

I know you hope and pray the Knicks do bad just to scream I told you so evidenced by you basically saying..."I told you so" after 8 games. SMFH at these haters.

Thanks for the math lesson TRILL. Like we tell Cub fans every year: YOU CAN'T WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP IN APRIL, BUT YOU SURE CAN LOSE ONE. How many games do you wanna spot an improved EAST???

jimkcchief88 · Nov 12, 2010

Red said:
Ok Trill name the terms:

If by (when), if our record is (what) you'll be convinced its a system flaw. I'll abide by that.

Like if by the trade deadline if we aren't at least .500 he should go... or something like that. Name the terms, and i'll agree to disagree for now.

And everyone knew we lacked defense cause D Lee (the player) couldn't play it. That's why he wasn't valued. What we didn't want to admit was the offensive strategy is too flawed and inconsistent to be complimented by good D.

He won't do it RED because I tried to bet him during the offseason and was called a hater. Alot of HOT-AIR, but won't put his money where his mouth is. And I thought I lived in the WINDY CITY...

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

Red said:
Ok Trill name the terms:

If by (when), if our record is (what) you'll be convinced its a system flaw. I'll abide by that.

Like if by the trade deadline if we aren't at least .500 he should go... or something like that. Name the terms, and i'll agree to disagree for now.

And everyone knew we lacked defense cause D Lee (the player) couldn't play it. That's why he wasn't valued. What we didn't want to admit was the offensive strategy is too flawed and inconsistent to be complimented by good D.

I already did in the other thread. (I think it was your thread) If by the trade deadline we are out of the playoffs or struggling badly barring no major injuries the dude should be gone.

I am not against holding D'ant accountable I just feel a lot of the criticism is uninformed and unfair. I also certainly don't believe that 8 games in with a new roster that an verdict has been established.

I just hope you don't do what Jimqueef does and hope and bet against this team doing well just to ye;ll "I told you so" on a forum.

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

jimkcchief88 said:
Thanks for the math lesson TRILL. Like we tell Cub fans every year: YOU CAN'T WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP IN APRIL, BUT YOU SURE CAN LOSE ONE. How many games do you wanna spot an improved EAST???

You are a moron and there is no point in trying to have a civil debate. Spot games? We are ****ing 3-5 asshole and only one of those loses was against a crap team. I think we have the 7th best record in the East if I'm not mistaken nimrod.

nyk_nyk · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
Really? SO the Suns weren't consistently successful? I'd say 4 straight 50+ win seasons, back to back 60+ win seasons and two appearances in the Western Conference finals is pretty damn consistent.

Further SSOL is not about just 3 pointers...it's about taking quick open shots and attacking not giving the defense time to set up. Any coach in any system is going to tell their shooters to take the open shot...period!

I'm a fair person so i'll give you that PHX was successful. Still, what I highlighted is the reason why we fail too much in the clutch or lose late leads/can't regain the lead. Late in the 4th qtr it IS NOT about taking quick open shots because your posessions become 2x as valuable at that point. SSOL can't and should not be emloyed for 48 minutes. Sure they (PHX) went to the conference finals and won a bunch of regular season games and it looks all good BUT it just doesn't work from a practical standpoint. Nash was probably the single best player to run that system. I'd rather have a coach who can slot anyone in the PG position and still be competitive.

The game has a way of dictating itself based on offensive efficiency, ref tendencies, fouls, injuries, point differential and so on. It is during these times when a coach has to look at his guys and figure out what ability he needs at that point and utilize it. Not continue to focus on quick shots.

FYI - When your trying to get back in a game, settling for long range shots (open or not) is making it easier for the other team. Why? your not getting anyone in foul trouble and not causing them to be over the team foul limit. Once a team is in the penalty, your chances of scoring are that much easier since you don't even have to attempt a shot!

Its all too simple man.

Red · Nov 12, 2010

Well you didn't get real specific Trill. Out of the playoffs or struggling? Give me something concrete. Is a .500 record to much to ask for? wanna say a .400 team... by the deadline?

I agree 8 games isn't enough HAD we not seen MDA from PHX to now. But IMHO I have seen enough to feel confident that he can't get anybetter. As Jim said, it is what it is. Sink or Swim.

And I would never hope we lose to be right. I can admit when I'm wrong or off. But there are too many signs (some obvious some not so much) that tells me he is just limited. I hear the point & counter point so we'll just have to go to the video tape... or the record to solve this delima.

When a coach needs a 2 time MVP to be successful, he's not as good as those who were successful w/o one... don't u think? Its those little indicators that I notice. For instance... we seen Duncan hit the elbow jumper time and again. Do you think Pop invented that play? Or did he use an already designed play that fit TD's strength?

We seen Ray Allen come off the curl and hit the jimmy time and again... u think Doc invented this or utilized an already designed play based on Allens strengths? Those coaches implemented plays and systems to the strengths of players... not forced them to play within a system accentuated by a MVP. That's coaching.

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

nyk_nyk said:
I'm a fair person so i'll give you that PHX was successful. Still, what I highlighted is the reason why we fail too much in the clutch or lose late leads/can't regain the lead. Late in the 4th qtr it IS NOT about taking quick open shots because your posessions become 2x as valuable at that point. SSOL can and should not be emloyed for 48 minutes. Sure they (PHX) went to the conference finals and won a bunch of regular season games and it looks all good BUT it just doesn't work from a practical standpoint. Nash was probably the single best player to run that system. I'd rather have a coach who can slot anyone in the PG position and still be competitive.

The game has a way of dictating itself based on offensive efficiency, ref tendencies, fouls, injuries, point differential and so on. It is during these times when a coach has to look at his guys and figure out what ability he needs at that point and utilize it. Not continue to focus on quick shots.

FYI - When your trying to get back in a game, settling for long range shots (open or not) is making it easier for the other team. Why? your not getting anyone in foul trouble and not causing them to be over the team foul limit. Once a team is in the penalty, your chances of scoring are that much easier since you don't even have to attempt a shot!

Its all too simple man.

Listen, you say things as if I or D'ant are not aware of them. We can and do run set plays and draw fouls so I am not seeing your point. Didn't we draw a shit load of fouls against GS? Could we have not won that game had Amare hit some free throws?

SSOL is a general offensive philosophy that has many facets beyond what you and others give it credit for. D'ant is a professional coach and as you admit had success in Phoenix. Do you think he won all those games not understanding how to change gears late in the 4th? Come on man! Watch a friggan Knick game objectively and you will see that these criticisms don't hold water under scrutiny game in and game out. Yes, anyone can point to a loss and nit pick the shit out of it while placing the blame on the coach or system considering no system or coach is perfect.

The rap on D'ant has always been about his defense but that has no fallen by the weigh side because his team is playing good defense. Now the offensive specialist is being attacked for his offense! I find it ironic to be honest. Any system on any given night is going to look like shit when players can't make shots and when they lose.

jimkcchief88 · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
I already did in the other thread. (I think it was your thread) If by the trade deadline we are out of the playoffs or struggling badly barring no major injuries the dude should be gone.

I am not against holding D'ant accountable I just feel a lot of the criticism is uninformed and unfair. I also certainly don't believe that 8 games in with a new roster that an verdict has been established.

I just hope you don't do what Jimqueef does and hope and bet against this team doing well just to ye;ll "I told you so" on a forum.

See that's what I'm saying: Backin' up like an eight-legged crawdad. Back during the summer it was which playoff spot. Now reality sets in.... first losing streak of the season.

I ain't betting against the KNICKS, I'm betting against YOUR BASKETBALL IQ.... Right now you are scoring about a 7.....

So keep up with the insults.....

I am coaxing you into putting your stupid opinions in B&W for the whole board to see

WHO'S THE DUMMY NOW?????

AND I PUT ALL THAT ON CHIEF.....(still sipping kool-aid, rebuilding can happen)

jimkcchief88 · Nov 12, 2010

nyk_nyk said:
Wrong. This is exactly what myself and others are trying to point out. You can't be consistently successful with an offense that works ONLY if you hit a high % of long range 3pt shots. Only the best shooters can run a % of 45% and over for a whole season and its probably very few of them (I'll let u look that one up). This offense is either hit or miss. There's no middle ground for success.

If players aren't hitting shots on a particular night then the system should be adjusted don't you think? Hitting 3s has never been consistent with most players, this is proven by the way we categorize a good 3pt shooter (north of 35%) and a great one (north of 40%). However, when talking about overall FG%, players can easily hit the 40%-50% mark because the shots get easier closer to the basket.

Now do you understand?
__________________

Don't even waste your breath if this donut can't figure out a lay-up is a higher % shot than a 3. Musta not even played basketball in his own BACKYARD.....

LJ4ptplay · Nov 12, 2010

I find it funny that a bunch of dudes on an internet forum claiming to "know basketball" better than an NBA coach. You may disagree with the philosophy, which is fine, but don't act like anybody here knows what the hell they're talking about when it comes to drawing up plays or undertstanding a system. I wonder how many of you have even played one minute of organized ball.

In the end, the record is what will matter. His record for the last two years should not be taken into consideration because of the circumstances. If we're around .500 and make the playoffs, we have met expectations. Anything exceeding that is an over-achievement. If our record is similar to last year's and we don't make the playoffs, he should be fired. It's that simple. Everything else you people want to argue about is moot.

nyk_nyk · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
Listen, you say things as if I or D'ant are not aware of them. We can and do run set plays and draw fouls so I am not seeing your point. Didn't we draw a shit load of fouls against GS? Could we have not won that game had Amare hit some free throws?

SSOL is a general offensive philosophy that has many facets beyond what you and others give it credit for. D'ant is a professional coach and as you admit had success in Phoenix. Do you think he won all those games not understanding how to change gears late in the 4th? Come on man! Watch a friggan Knick game objectively and you will see that these criticisms don't hold water under scrutiny game in and game out. Yes, anyone can point to a loss and nit pick the shit out of it while placing the blame on the coach or system considering no system or coach is perfect.

The rap on D'ant has always been about his defense but that has no fallen by the weigh side because his team is playing good defense. Now the offensive specialist is being attacked for his offense! I find it ironic to be honest. Any system on any given night is going to look like shit when players can't make shots and when they lose.

Its kind of weird how you defend the hell out of this unconventional system that has never won anything. Were you a Suns fan? I mean seriously, you even breaking it down in an attempt to highlight its strengths.

I've seen for many years what wins titles and its never been a system highly predicated on offense. Fundamental basketball will always win.

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

ell you didn't get real specific Trill. Out of the playoffs or struggling? Give me something concrete. Is a .500 record to much to ask for? wanna say a .400 team... by the deadline?

I think it's more how we are playing by then and if we are contending for the playoffs. If we look lost or players aren't playing to their strengths the dude needs to be canned.

I agree 8 games isn't enough HAD we not seen MDA from PHX to now. But IMHO I have seen enough to feel confident that he can't get anybetter. As Jim said, it is what it is. Sink or Swim.

I think everyone agrees it's sink or swim for D'ant tenure here in NYC.

And I would never hope we lose to be right.

I am glad to hear it...there are real Knick fans and fake ones. Glad to see where you stand Red.

When a coach needs a 2 time MVP to be successful, he's not as good as those who were successful w/o one... don't u think? Its those little indicators that I notice. For instance... we seen Duncan hit the elbow jumper time and again. Do you think Pop invented that play? Or did he use an already designed play that fit TD's strength?

1. Nash wasn't an MVP caliber until he played for the versy system you are attacking. That system is what allowed him to become a HOF player just as it inflated Duhons stats and is going to lead to a Felton having a career year. Mike is probably the best PG to ever play in Europe and if he knows anything it's how to coach a PG.

2. Where would Phil Jackson be with Jordan, Kobe or Shaq? Players and rosters make or break coaches. So is Phil Jackson's success only predicated on having 3 of the top 10 players of all time?

3. Duncan is a fundamental machine, future hall of famer and top 30 player of all time. Duncan would be hitting that same shot regrdless of who was coaching him.

We seen Ray Allen come off the curl and hit the jimmy time and again... u think Doc invented this or utilized an already designed play based on Allens strengths?

Do you think D'ant would not have Allen doing the same exact thing? Of course! Do you think we have a player that could do what Allen does? Nope! I get your point though, you think D'ant does not have players playing to their strengths but you forget one thing. Players like Allen and Duncan are "go to players" that you run plays for cisistenly. The only true "go to" player on this team is Amare and his game is predicated on finishing the ball while in motion off of a great feed. This is up to Felton to maximize Amare's game and I think and hope over time he will.

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

jimkcchief88 said:
See that's what I'm saying: Backin' up like an eight-legged crawdad. Back during the summer it was which playoff spot. Now reality sets in.... first losing streak of the season.

I ain't betting against the KNICKS, I'm betting against YOUR BASKETBALL IQ.... Right now you are scoring about a 7.....

So keep up with the insults.....

I am coaxing you into putting your stupid opinions in B&W for the whole board to see

WHO'S THE DUMMY NOW?????

AND I PUT ALL THAT ON CHIEF.....(still sipping kool-aid, rebuilding can happen)

As you try to insult me you talk about me insulting you...Hence why you are a moron. I am not backing up from anything. I think this team is playoff bound once we get firing on all cylinders. The question was at what point I would call for D'ant to be fired, not what I predict you dimwit! Man you can't help but look like a fool can you...

And my skeet...I put that on chief.

Red · Nov 12, 2010

Ok Trill...

The trade deadline is Feb. 24th.

We have 56 games til then.

28 wins = .500
22 wins (rounded down from 22.4) = .400

So by then we should be .500 or .400 in your opinion before being convinced? Or should we lower it?

As nyk said its simple to see what the issue is b/c guess what... I see it happeneong to us almost every game. I can't feel confident with a lead even when we hit every shot, b/c this system has fundamental flaws.

Another question you have to ask yourself is... when was the last time WE actually had someone in foul trouble? It happens to us all the time. But why aren't we exploiting this fundamental part of the game...

HINT: it has something to do with taking "open" three's for the majority of looks. And be real... like when we debated befor... NO every coach doesn't want players to shoot when they're open... know why?

1. Players could be open @ half court... should they shoot?

2. Not every player is A SHOOTER. But ask MDA that and he'll tell you every player should be able to hit "open" outside shots... another fundamentally flawed outlook... don't you think?

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

nyk_nyk said:
Its kind of weird how you defend the hell out of this unconventional system that has never won anything. Were you a Suns fan? I mean seriously, you even breaking it down in an attempt to highlight its strengths.

I've seen for many years what wins titles and its never been a system highly predicated on offense. Fundamental basketball will always win.

I have been a Knick fan since the late 80's and never liked any other team. I did find the Suns a fun team to watch and I enjoy OKC now. I am defending our current coach using his tenure on the Suns as an example against what I feel are uninformed and misguided criticisms. I am breaking shit down because I want to dig deeper then generic talking points that someone hears from Charles Barkley on TNT and then parrots as fact or wisdom. (not you necessarily)

We are playing defense so what is wrong with scoring a lot of points? I agree just trying to go basket for basket and hope to outscore your opponent is not a recipe for success. My whole point is that D'ant is not guilty of that. Again, a coach of the year winner with a winning NBA record inspite of 2 years with a rebuilding Knicks definetly knows how to change gears during the 4th quarter when it's appropriate.

BTW, there is nothing more fundamental then spreading the floor, taking open shots and running the PnR. The only thing unorthodox about his system is the speed in which he tries to attack the defense.

TR1LL10N · Nov 12, 2010

<hr style="color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" size="1"> Ok Trill...

The trade deadline is Feb. 24th.

We have 56 games til then.

28 wins = .500
22 wins (rounded down from 22.4) = .400

So by then we should be .500 or .400 in your opinion before being convinced? Or should we lower it?

It matters not the exact win %. We will all know by then whether D'ant is doing a good job with this roster and can make that determination. It will come down to our playoff chances, momentum, efficiency and overall effectiveness.

nyk_nyk · Nov 12, 2010

TR1LL10N said:
I have been a Knick fan since the late 80's and never liked any other team. I did find the Suns a fun team to watch and I enjoy OKC now. I am defending our current coach using his tenure on the Suns as an example against what I feel are uninformed and misguided criticisms. I am breaking shit down because I want to dig deeper then generic talking points that someone hears from Charles Barkley on TNT and then parrots as fact or wisdom. (not you necessarily)

We are playing defense so what is wrong with scoring a lot of points? I agree just trying to go basket for basket and hope to outscore your opponent is not a recipe for success. My whole point is that D'ant is not guilty of that. Again, a coach of the year winner with a winning NBA record inspite of 2 years with a rebuilding Knicks definetly knows how to change gears during the 4th quarter when it's appropriate.

BTW, there is nothing more fundamental then spreading the floor, taking open shots and running the PnR. The only thing unorthodox about his system is the speed in which he tries to attack the defense.

Ok I agree with most of the things you said, but can you answer a few questions:

Do you really think we are stopping other teams? Sure we get more blocks but on-ball and transition defense is not much better.

Late in the 4th qtr in a close game, do you honestly believe SSOL works to our advantage? Do you think Speeding things up at that point when possessions are extremely valuable is good?

The Verdict is in...

Hannibal Lecter

Hannibal Lecter

TYPE-A

All Star

All Star

Hannibal Lecter

Hannibal Lecter

All Star

TYPE-A

Hannibal Lecter

All Star

All Star

Starter

All Star

Hannibal Lecter

Hannibal Lecter

TYPE-A

Hannibal Lecter

Hannibal Lecter

All Star