knicksman20
Benchwarmer
Bryon Russell & Mario Ellie.
Off the dome I can remember someguys that used to guard MJ & were good SG's/SF's: Sean Elliot, Kendall Gill, Dan Majerle, Richard Dumas, Jimmy Jackson, & Eddie Jones.
Can we cut the Superstar sh*t?
- Thread starter Red
- Start date
Bryon Russell & Mario Ellie.
Off the dome I can remember someguys that used to guard MJ & were good SG's/SF's: Sean Elliot, Kendall Gill, Dan Majerle, Richard Dumas, Jimmy Jackson, & Eddie Jones.
ronoranina
Fundamentally Sound
I was thinking of Jeff Malone and Vernon Maxwell. Glad I went to Bball Reference or I wouldn't have recalled them.. I was on more of late 80s, early 90s train of thought. Also, Russell and Ellie aren't undersized.
Clyde & The Pearl
Starter
Times may be different, but the object remains the same. Championships. If you have an opportunity to add HOF, superstar, star type players you do it. When has it ever been taboo to add the BEST?
The same players you are trying to surround STAT and Melo with will be there to surround STAT, Melo and CP3.
ronoranina
Fundamentally Sound
Yep. :rolling:
nuckles2k2
Superstar
I don't understand....why is it that Dallas wins a ring with one superstar and suddenly everyone jumps off the bandwagon of the Knicks building their own big-3? Role Players? Where the **** we going with role players?
Dallas might not have had household, superstar, "I get media hype" and commercials players....but they had dudes who were tops in the league at what they did. Let's not act like Terry isn't one of the better players in the open court and a dead-eye, knockdown, shooter. JJ Barea isn't one of the better penetrators in the league (dude kept getting Nash-like references from multiple people in the finals.) You know...Tyson Chandler isn't one of the better bigs in the game....Jason Kidd still isn't a great defender who now uses smarts as much as physicality...oh yea, and he's 2nd all time in assists and can run a team like a pilot flying a 737...Shawn Marion isn't still a damn good scorer 15-feet and down....he can't play both ends of the court....nah.....that cast of players were just a bunch of "role" guys the likes of Grant Hill and Mickael Pietrus.
The equivalents to those players don't seem to be out there. I'm not trying to have a bunch of rag-tag ass *****s around STAT & Melo talking about "we're gonna do it Dallas' way.
Like Clyde & Pearl said, the players who people wanna target right now, will be there with 3 complementary superstars on one team, primed and ready to dominate. Enough of this arm-chair GM, "watch me build a team that will get bounced in the conference finals, every. single. year." stuff.
Miami got to the Finals with 2 and a half superstars, and their two biggest players don't even complement each other. Dallas got to the Finals by having 6 quality starters with some contributions from DeShawn, Haywood/Mahinmi, and Cardinal. Not Dirk, and the rest of them dudes over there.
Dallas might not have had household, superstar, "I get media hype" and commercials players....but they had dudes who were tops in the league at what they did. Let's not act like Terry isn't one of the better players in the open court and a dead-eye, knockdown, shooter. JJ Barea isn't one of the better penetrators in the league (dude kept getting Nash-like references from multiple people in the finals.) You know...Tyson Chandler isn't one of the better bigs in the game....Jason Kidd still isn't a great defender who now uses smarts as much as physicality...oh yea, and he's 2nd all time in assists and can run a team like a pilot flying a 737...Shawn Marion isn't still a damn good scorer 15-feet and down....he can't play both ends of the court....nah.....that cast of players were just a bunch of "role" guys the likes of Grant Hill and Mickael Pietrus.
The equivalents to those players don't seem to be out there. I'm not trying to have a bunch of rag-tag ass *****s around STAT & Melo talking about "we're gonna do it Dallas' way.
Like Clyde & Pearl said, the players who people wanna target right now, will be there with 3 complementary superstars on one team, primed and ready to dominate. Enough of this arm-chair GM, "watch me build a team that will get bounced in the conference finals, every. single. year." stuff.
Miami got to the Finals with 2 and a half superstars, and their two biggest players don't even complement each other. Dallas got to the Finals by having 6 quality starters with some contributions from DeShawn, Haywood/Mahinmi, and Cardinal. Not Dirk, and the rest of them dudes over there.
RunningJumper
Super Moderator
nuckles, I'm not sure which side you're on lol. It seems like you rather have a well rounded team, but you think it's not likely. Well, look at this way. For next season, if we get a center, such as Dalembert, that'd be a great addition to STAT, Melo, and Billups. There is veterans out there who are high quality, more than Hill and Pietrus. How did Pietrus get brought up anyway? From you or somebody else in this thread?lol I like him, but yeah.
What you have to realize is, Billups, if he comes back the season after, isn't gonna be asking for 14 million.
nuckles2k2
Superstar
I saw Pietrus' name in another thread.
I want a well rounded team, but I'm not convinced that we can achieve it at a championship level, and I don't wanna end up being the Atlanta Hawks, Utah Jazz, or Mavericks of 2006-2009. Being well rounded doesn't guarantee anything.
I'm getting kind of scared that we're going to go get "pieces" and become "well rounded" just for the hell of it, and squander away our chances. If you look at the last handful of champions (excluding the Mavs) you have Kobe/Pau/Odom with help from D-Fish, Ariza, Artest, and Brown. Then you have Pierce/KG/Allen with help from Posey, PJ Brown, Toney Allen, Perkins, and Rondo. And you have Duncan/Ginobli/Parker with help from Finely, Bowen, Horry, and Elson/Barry.
Dallas is kind of the exception to the rule. Why are we so stuck on following that model all of a sudden?
How many pieces can we add this offseason? Even if Billups' salary goes from $14M to less than half of that...how many pieces can we add then? And would we be able to build a perennial contender with those pieces?
I don't want a well rounded team because it's a well rounded team. I want a well rounded team because we have 5-7 legit NBA starters and the depth is devastating...otherwise go get a 3rd superstar.
STAT1
Starter
You can still keep your flexibility open to target a superstar in 2012 & accomplish all 4 of your goals in 2011. Forget about AI dude. I have as much respect for the man as anyone, but he's clearly got some serious personal issues that got even worse when his NBA skills started to erode. The Knicks would be best served to steer clear of that kind of problem. As for T-Mac, I wouldn't be opposed to bringing him back on a 1 year contract, but nothing more than that. & That's more due to the fact that you can't trust that he'll remain healthy over the longterm than anything else.
I don't see any potential FA's out there that we can realistically target this summer that would drastically impact our team next season, so regardless of what moves we make, I think they're most likely going to be of the stopgap type variety anyway.
RunningJumper
Super Moderator
The difference between the Hawks and us though is, we have Melo. Joe Johnson is nowhere near worth a max contract. We have two guys who's better than him. Amar'e is a lot better than Joe Johnson.
STAT1
Starter
I would love to add a Ty Chandler type too, but the Mavs will resign him you can bet on that. So what's left? Sam Dalembert? I just don't see him making us into a championship team. He'll help address our need for defense & rebounding in the paint most certainly, but to be a real championship contender we'll need a lot more. Otherwise we'll likely have to look in to trading Landry Fields to acquire some size at the C position that would actually make a difference.
& As long as MDA is coaching this team I don't have the faith that we'll ever play the type of defense it will take to be a realistic contender. That means we'll have to beat teams by bringing in a real floor general who can create scoring opportunities for himself & all his teammates on the court. People like to talk about how Lebron choked in this series, & to an extent they're right, but you also have to give the Mavs credit for the defense they payed on him all series long. They forced him to try & beat them with perimeter J's while clogging the lanes well when Lebron tried to penetrate off the dribble & collected some big charges against him in the paint. Do you ever think MDA's teams would be able to do that against Lebron? I don't think I have to tell you of all people that the matador defense MDA's teams typically play would have laid the red carpet down for Lebron to penetrate to the hole & finish on just about every single possession. We need another coach before we can start talking about how adding a few role players is going to make us a championship contender. If rebounding & shotblocking is what you're after, I think our best bet is to acquire this type of talent in the draft. Guys like Kenneth Faried or Jajuan Johnson might help to fill those voids.
nuckles2k2
Superstar
That's one team. And their "pieces" are a lot better than ours...the quantity of talent that we can't afford if we keep Billups' contract. Crawford, Zaza, Evans, and Williams aren't quite as good as the supporting cast that Dirk has, but it's still better than ours...and that's also a team that has those guys around Johnson, Horford, and Smith. Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I don't see how having a sub-par supporting cast is gonna get us a championship.
Plus you didn't address the Jazz or Mavs, who were "well rounded," great regular season teams, but kept getting smoked by the same dynamic in LA and San Antonio.
Melo and Amar'e aren't enough to win a ring. It's a start, it's a foundation, but it's not enough. And I'm not overlooking Billups either (he's not gonna be here the next half-decade)...I'm just talking about a dynasty, a perennial championship contender...not a perennial playoff team, but a team that's headed to the Finals year in and year out. Those teams are kind of dwindling right now, and it's a changing of the guard. If now is not the time to establish yourself as a powerhouse that is steamrolling to the Finals, every single year, then when is it? And are we gonna do that with a bunch of stopgap, old bones, dudes trying to stay in the league/revive their career here?
Or do we go get a Dwight Howard, or CP3 if we can't get a platoon the likes of Marion, Terry, Chandler, Barea, and Kidd.
Edit: Plus MDA is our coach, so we're already failing all over the place. Even if we acquire the pieces we need, I dunno if he'd properly utilize them.
InGodsHands
Benchwarmer
You're not pessimistic, you're being realistic.
Hawks are lightyears ahead of us they have a team that's been together for a couple of years, and is competing hard every game in the playoffs. They are not a contender but if Jeff Teague gets more minutes they will be even more dangerous. Joe Johnson is not Carmelo but he is all-star year after year that has to mean something.
I just find it interesting that in their first year together the Miami Heat were 2 wins away from winning the title...and now everyone says superstars don't work.
Fact is the Heat were up 9 in the 4th quarter of game 4, on track to take a commanding 3-1 lead and if LeBron had been LeBron we would be having the exact opposite conversation. A bit of an overreaction, don't we all think?
Fact is the Heat were up 9 in the 4th quarter of game 4, on track to take a commanding 3-1 lead and if LeBron had been LeBron we would be having the exact opposite conversation. A bit of an overreaction, don't we all think?
LJ4ptplay
Starter
What would everyone think if we can't afford a 3rd max star?
As it stands right now, in 2012, we will have approx $48.3 mil in team salary with only 5 players on the roster (Melo, Amare, Douglas, Balkman, 17th pick from this year). This is not including resigning players like Shawne Williams and Anthony Carter to multiple year deals. This is also including forgoing using the MLE this summer (if it exists). The cap this year was $58 mil. It went up $1 mil from last year ($57 to $58 mil).
Does anybody really see CP3 or Howard taking $11 mil?
As it stands right now, in 2012, we will have approx $48.3 mil in team salary with only 5 players on the roster (Melo, Amare, Douglas, Balkman, 17th pick from this year). This is not including resigning players like Shawne Williams and Anthony Carter to multiple year deals. This is also including forgoing using the MLE this summer (if it exists). The cap this year was $58 mil. It went up $1 mil from last year ($57 to $58 mil).
Does anybody really see CP3 or Howard taking $11 mil?
NYallDay
Benchwarmer
couldnt agree more with what you said. but to me the biggest improvements we need to make are our defensive mindset and coaching. maybe a CP3 brings that mindset and thats what takes us over the top.
dallas really clamped down on defense and would not give any clear path to the rim for lebron or wade. they made them jump shooters. whether it was a coaching philosophy, or a concentrated team effort, or a combination of the two, i dont know. but it was proven again, that defense is essential. im not saying we're at the bottom of the bucket when it comes to defense, cuz we're not. the first 2 games against boston, we played stellar D. but its the mindset and philosophy that i have my doubts about. hopefully Billups will get in peoples faces and hold them accountable if they dont put forth the effort and hustle since we're damn sure that the coach wont be doin any of that.
dallas really clamped down on defense and would not give any clear path to the rim for lebron or wade. they made them jump shooters. whether it was a coaching philosophy, or a concentrated team effort, or a combination of the two, i dont know. but it was proven again, that defense is essential. im not saying we're at the bottom of the bucket when it comes to defense, cuz we're not. the first 2 games against boston, we played stellar D. but its the mindset and philosophy that i have my doubts about. hopefully Billups will get in peoples faces and hold them accountable if they dont put forth the effort and hustle since we're damn sure that the coach wont be doin any of that.
nuckles2k2
Superstar
I don't see CP3 or Dwight taking 11mil because I don't see New Orleans or Orlando getting "Lebron'd," those dudes will be traded.
We can take on CP3's $16M this year by moving Chauncey and a few other pieces, but we'd need to elicit a third team to take on whatever salary NO is looking to shed. We'd also have to lose Landry and probably a first round draft selection as well (even more of a reason to buy another pick(s) this year.) Neither team will get equal value for their superstars, but we probably can entice New Orleans (and the NBA who's running the team) more so than we can Orlando.
If there is to be a hard cap, it's not gonna be lowered to the point where NBA teams with two star caliber players can only afford those two guys....that's negotiations 101....they're starting lower than the number they're willing to accept and they'll be "bargained" up to that number. The hard cap will probably hover around where the current salary cap is, but without all of the exceptions that allow teams to hit luxury tax numbers. And there has to be some sort of an "out" for these superteams, because the NBA LOVES these teams. They rake in cash for the league, no way they'd allow a CBA that would do away with them...and I'm not even talking about the current superteam(s) with the Heat and hopefully, soon to be, Knicks...I'm talking Spurs, Lakers, Mavs, Celtics, pretty much any contending team over the cap.
I imagine that out would be some sort of proposal for non-guarnateed contracts that have certain percentages of guaranteed money in them (signing bonus and roster bonus in NFL) where the teams have the ability to renegotiate monies, and also cut players with no penalty to the cap when guaranteed money has already been paid. That, plus shortening the length of a max deal would create a scenario where teams won't be burdened by those long ass, never ending, contracts. If a guy has two years left on his deal and he's only guaranteed $4M of the $12M he's slated to make...that's a move you can probably make if you have his replacement ready, as opposed to the current NBA where you have to move all $12M in a trade and take back expiring deals, 2nd round picks, or just pay the dude $12M to walk away.
I think the Knicks, Heat, and any other team that finds a way to acquire 3 bonafide stars/superstars will be able to keep those three guys under the new CBA. The league has an incentive to make sure it's possible....massive amounts of money.
ronoranina
Fundamentally Sound
Under the current CBA couldn't we offer Paul 11 mil for 8 yrs? Adds up to close to 100 mil..
LJ4ptplay
Starter
No. We can only offer a 5 year contract to a free agent not currently on our roster.
NYallDay
Benchwarmer
but what incentive does CP3 have to sign an extension with the team that trades for him? he's not in the Melo boat, he can wait till he becomes a free agent, go to a team he wants and get the same amount of money. i actually would prefer getting him when hes a free agent as oppose to mid season
- we dont have to worry about him learning the system or players gelling or watever
- we dont give up assets
- we get a full training camp under our belts
OF COURSE ALL THIS IS HINGING ON US ACTUALLY GETTING HIM :crossfingers:
- we dont have to worry about him learning the system or players gelling or watever
- we dont give up assets
- we get a full training camp under our belts
OF COURSE ALL THIS IS HINGING ON US ACTUALLY GETTING HIM :crossfingers: