AmareForPresident
Starter
Yeah by ignoring defense and having us score 120 points to win a game.
Would u be ok with missing the playoffs if that was the only way MDA would be fired?
- Thread starter knicksin60
- Start date
TR1LL10N
Hannibal Lecter
I like how you claim I am an apologist yet didn't refute a single point! So you deflect and attack me instead of debating my actual points! Silly rabbit...childish debate tactics are for kids!
Allow me to actually address your so called "points" and show you how a debate is supposed to be conducted:
This is what we call making up a hypothetical and debating from it as fact. The only fact in your scenario is that the Knicks would lose. Everything else is pure conjecture considering you don't know who our coach would be, how a collapse would effect our chemistry and confidence moving forward or if we would truly be better in the long run. That is your fatal flaw...you would rather gamble with all of those unknowns and take the one known(our collapse) just to vindicate your hatred. Sad dude...sad.
How intellectually dishonest of you...SMH. D'ant got us into the 6th seed with two of the top 10 players? Uhm...NO! One of those players just arrived along with a starting PG who has been injured more than he has been healthy. He got us into the 6th seed with one star playing out of position, two rookies, coaxing a career year out of an avaerage PG who is now coming off the bench for Denver and a mismash of undersized players including a perennial d-leaguer who is one of many players to have a career year under D'ant.
I don't expect anything, I hope as a real Knick fan that they do so. If not, the experience they garner will be a substantial consolation prize. The only one foolishly expecting anything is you. You EXPECT that Coach X will somehow turn Amare and Melo into lock down defenders. You EXPECT Coach X to somehow make us a defensive team when we don't have a true center, our best rebounder is a SG and our defensive PG is 35 years old and not in our long term plans.
^^NOw that is how you address points and debate. Save the EMBRYONIC tactics of dismissing points made in your direction without a counter argument for another poster. :thumbsup:
To be fair, we were the 6th seed bro before Melo..
EDIT -- Trill beat me to that one
Also, it isn't a guarantee, but it isn't illogical to think we *will* turn on the D in the playoffs.
For the precise examples you've mentioned:
We get butcher jobbed by the Pacers and Cavs...yet clamp down against playoff-caliber, even top playoff teams.
Which makes further sense, given the reps of Melo and Amare on D -- and what Chauncey Billups has repeatedly said:
"much of defense is effort"
And the playoffs, or highly publicized games against top opponents, is when you would most see that kind of effort,
Especially from our most critical players: Amare and Melo, and Billups.
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Hey, you're the one that asked what it meant. I like how you don't refute any of my other statements and instead choose to deflect.
I gotta take my hat off to Trillion who is one of the few on these boards that actually debates instead of repeating mantras and phrases with no backup. You beat me to the punch on a lot of good points.
In effect, that's absolutely right.
Now imagine adding depth, defensive players, our superstars and team gelling, and....Replacing the most unproductive black hole of a 5 in the entire NBA with an actual NBA starting center,
And think how good we can be.
This franchise has spit out coach after coach, including NBA champions and HOF'ers.
Now we get a guy to -- unexpectedly -- make us a 6th amidst roster upheaval, a black hole at the 5, and little depth.
And he gets crucified like he's a witch.
Honestly, if MDA and this team had done *worse* this year, he would get *less* flack. Talk about biting the hand that feeds.
But because we have had a career year out of Amare (which very few expected) **not like MDA could know how to coach Amare or have anything to do with his all-star career...
A monumental surprise in Fields **who's NBA knock coming into the season was that he couldn't rebound well enough, nor could he hit the outside shot and 3...Not like the head coach had anything to do with helping a guy with heart and effort improve in those areas....
And a resurgence of a year by Felton **not like MDA could have anything to do with a PG suddenly peaking and getting all star nods...
But because of this, people assume we had a 6th seed team coming into this...how forgetful they are of their own expectations and thoughts, aside from everything else....
That we now, after repeatedly moving the goal post, have a team being held back by MDA, because we aren't "better".
Not too dissimilar from the historical revisionism of his PHO teams, what he walked into, and the changes ownership made in his player personal along the way.
/thread
PaPZ187
Benchwarmer
I have taken this question as a hypothetical one, as there is no guarentee that D'Antoni gets fired if we were to miss the playoffs and no guarentee the FO would being in a solid, capable HC that knows the importance of Defense and is willing to take the time and effort to work on Defense as a TOP priority.
The question is hypothetical, so therefor we are saying would it be worth it to miss the playoffs to get a new HC in here that will preach D and play true bigs at the 5. No one that would take that situation is rooting for the team to lose or miss the playoffs, there is no guarentee that anything will change if we just miss out, so even though I would take missing the playoffs this year to get a new HC in here that will give us a better chance to become a complete team and true contender doesnt mean I am rooting for them to lose, because it is just a hypothetical question. Atleast thats how I have approached it.
I would love to root for the Knicks to upset a team in the first round (especially if it was Miami) and shock all the doubters, that would be great. But thats about as far as it would go, thats our ceiling this year IMO. The NBA is NOT the NFL. In the NFL ANYONE with a spot in the playoffs has a real CHANCE to win it all, that is NOT how the NBA works, there have been no "surprise champion" in the NBA for God knows how long....it just doesnt happen. You have about 4-6 teams tops that have a TRUE chance at winning it all year in and year out and thats it, and unfortunatly the Knicks are not one of those teams this year.
The reason most of us "MDA HATERS" want MDA gone is NOT because he doesnt have this team firing on all cylinders only 12 games after the trade, it has nothing to do with this season in particular. The reason we, or atleast most want MDA out is because he does not teach D and his style contridicts what history tells us a winning team has to be made out of. Playing small lineups for the majority and trying to outscore/outshoot your opponent while not giving Defense the time it deserves and the commitment is NOT the way to win titles, we all know this from previous threads showing you how if your not ATLEAST a Top 10 D you have NO SHOT at winning one, its as simple as that.
I have nothing against MDA personally, I just feel his philosophy in general is not going to win this Knicks team a title as Defense is just not as important to him as it is most coaches, or he just isnt a good defensive coach because MDA has never been known to have a Top 10 defensive team since he has been in the NBA, and that isnt going to cut it for true hardcore fans who want a title and are not fine with being a middle of the pack team, winning a series or two tops before eventually being eliminated from the playoffs year after year.
Personally I would LOVE to be wrong about MDA and have him get us to eventually become a true championship contender, but I just dont see that happening with the system and philosophy he teaches. I am a Knicks fan that wants whats best for the Knicks not only this season but longterm, and personally I dont think MDA is that. Just My Opinion.
The question is hypothetical, so therefor we are saying would it be worth it to miss the playoffs to get a new HC in here that will preach D and play true bigs at the 5. No one that would take that situation is rooting for the team to lose or miss the playoffs, there is no guarentee that anything will change if we just miss out, so even though I would take missing the playoffs this year to get a new HC in here that will give us a better chance to become a complete team and true contender doesnt mean I am rooting for them to lose, because it is just a hypothetical question. Atleast thats how I have approached it.
I would love to root for the Knicks to upset a team in the first round (especially if it was Miami) and shock all the doubters, that would be great. But thats about as far as it would go, thats our ceiling this year IMO. The NBA is NOT the NFL. In the NFL ANYONE with a spot in the playoffs has a real CHANCE to win it all, that is NOT how the NBA works, there have been no "surprise champion" in the NBA for God knows how long....it just doesnt happen. You have about 4-6 teams tops that have a TRUE chance at winning it all year in and year out and thats it, and unfortunatly the Knicks are not one of those teams this year.
The reason most of us "MDA HATERS" want MDA gone is NOT because he doesnt have this team firing on all cylinders only 12 games after the trade, it has nothing to do with this season in particular. The reason we, or atleast most want MDA out is because he does not teach D and his style contridicts what history tells us a winning team has to be made out of. Playing small lineups for the majority and trying to outscore/outshoot your opponent while not giving Defense the time it deserves and the commitment is NOT the way to win titles, we all know this from previous threads showing you how if your not ATLEAST a Top 10 D you have NO SHOT at winning one, its as simple as that.
I have nothing against MDA personally, I just feel his philosophy in general is not going to win this Knicks team a title as Defense is just not as important to him as it is most coaches, or he just isnt a good defensive coach because MDA has never been known to have a Top 10 defensive team since he has been in the NBA, and that isnt going to cut it for true hardcore fans who want a title and are not fine with being a middle of the pack team, winning a series or two tops before eventually being eliminated from the playoffs year after year.
Personally I would LOVE to be wrong about MDA and have him get us to eventually become a true championship contender, but I just dont see that happening with the system and philosophy he teaches. I am a Knicks fan that wants whats best for the Knicks not only this season but longterm, and personally I dont think MDA is that. Just My Opinion.
KnicksFanFromQueens1985
Banned
Any "fan" who roots for the team to miss the playoffs, just for the coach to be fired; is not a true fan.
The Knicks haven't been to the playoffs since 2004 where they got swept by the Nets. I grew up watching the Knicks during the 90's with great playoff rivalries againt the Bulls, Pacers & Heat & have missed those days of playoff basketball like never before. Win or lose this year, making the playoffs would be a dream come true. The Knicks are on the verge of heading into the playoffs led by Billups & two elite stars in Melo & Amare & you'd rather them miss the playoffs? Some fan.
Stop with all this "MDA will never lead NY to the Finals" trash. The East of now will never be as extremely tough as the Western Conf during MDA's days with PHX. The man led PHX to 4 consecutive trips to the playoffs with 54+ win seasons. Two 60+ win seasons & 2 Western Conf Final apperances. The East will NEVER be that tough. Just like Riley & Ewing ran into the dynasty Bulls of MJ days; MDA ran into the dynasty Spurs.
The Knicks haven't been to the playoffs since 2004 where they got swept by the Nets. I grew up watching the Knicks during the 90's with great playoff rivalries againt the Bulls, Pacers & Heat & have missed those days of playoff basketball like never before. Win or lose this year, making the playoffs would be a dream come true. The Knicks are on the verge of heading into the playoffs led by Billups & two elite stars in Melo & Amare & you'd rather them miss the playoffs? Some fan.
Stop with all this "MDA will never lead NY to the Finals" trash. The East of now will never be as extremely tough as the Western Conf during MDA's days with PHX. The man led PHX to 4 consecutive trips to the playoffs with 54+ win seasons. Two 60+ win seasons & 2 Western Conf Final apperances. The East will NEVER be that tough. Just like Riley & Ewing ran into the dynasty Bulls of MJ days; MDA ran into the dynasty Spurs.
Clyde & The Pearl
Starter
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Markutis
Benchwarmer
It has taken 68 games but now i'm convinced: Mike D'Antoni needs to go!
Every day we're getting a little bit worst under his guidance. He doesn't know how to handle a roster at all. He's incapable to adapt or respond to what other coaches do during games. He's not a leader. From the last 7 defeats, 5 of them have been extremely painful. There are no excuses to losing two times against Cleveland and Indiana or the last one in Detroit. We had the opportunity to get closer to Atlanta with a benevolent schedule and instead of that we ended getting passed by the Sixers.
I've lost my faith in D'Antoni. Every day we wait to get rid of him is a lost day to the Knicks future. For me it's not a matter of getting closer to winning championships, it's about starting to do the right thing.
Every day we're getting a little bit worst under his guidance. He doesn't know how to handle a roster at all. He's incapable to adapt or respond to what other coaches do during games. He's not a leader. From the last 7 defeats, 5 of them have been extremely painful. There are no excuses to losing two times against Cleveland and Indiana or the last one in Detroit. We had the opportunity to get closer to Atlanta with a benevolent schedule and instead of that we ended getting passed by the Sixers.
I've lost my faith in D'Antoni. Every day we wait to get rid of him is a lost day to the Knicks future. For me it's not a matter of getting closer to winning championships, it's about starting to do the right thing.
knicksin60
Starter
You have been one of the biggest D'antoni apologists on this forum for the past couple of years.By just you being on this thread and defending D'antoni, you are being apologetic.I refuted your points, you just have a terrible habit of overlooking what the person debating you says.I've seen you do this a number of times to other posters.
There have been several teams with talented rosters that have improved after a coaching change.The 1995-96 Knicks were the perfect example of a team who had star players and were playing down to the level of their opponents until their coach was fired and replaced mid season.In the last year, teams like the Bulls and Sixers have improved after a coaching change.
The Knicks have 3 star players on their team and their chemistry and confidence are no where to be seen.You can't make the excuse that this team would lose chemistry and confidence moving forward when they have none of those two things to begin with.They're losing to teams like the Cavs, Pacers and Pistons.If they look like a team with confidence and chemistry to you then you must be watching only 3 quarters of the game.It's obvious that the Knicks need a coach who could adapt a defensive culture to the team because D'antoni sure isn't motivating his players to play defense in the 4th quarter of games.
The point that I was trying to make was that D'antoni shouldn't be looked at as some kind of genius just because the Knicks have the 7th seed in a conference that is a crap shoot after Boston, Chicago, Miami, and Orlando.The Knicks have a playoff spot because the teams that are below them in the standings are less talented than them, not because Mike D'antoni knows how to get the best out of mediocre talent.The fact that the Knicks were just surpassed in the standings by the Sixers after adding another superstar to their roster proves that D'antoni is not living up to his job as a coach.
.
Like I mentioned before, the Knicks have 3 stars on their team that have tons of playoff experience, playing 5 or 6 more games in the playoff this year will do nothing to help Amare and Melo garner more playoff experience unless Derek Rose, Dwight Howard, Kevin Garnett, and Dwayne Wade all go down with a season ending injury and the Knicks magically make it to the NBA finals.
I don't expect D'antoni's replacement to turn Amar'e and Melo into Bill Russell and Sam Jones, what I want is a coach that makes team defense a number one priority, has zero tolerance for players who want to be lazy on the defensive end and a coach who is willing to set a half court offense.The Bulls, Magic and Heat are all going to be good defensive teams for a very long time and the Knicks will never get past those 3 teams unless D'antoni is replaced by someone who can motivate the Knicks to play better defense.
How could I take anyone who praises his own arguments and accuses others of doing the same thing that he does seriously? I don't expect you to agree with me or change your stance, you will just continue arguing against anyone who criticizes Mike D'antoni.
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TR1LL10N
Hannibal Lecter
I am not surprised you are trying to make this about me instead of your lame anti-Knick rant. I'll bite though...by definition I am clearly not an apologist. I am however a corrector of misinformation and half cocked accusations lazily typed by posters with a grudge. I am also a defender of the Knicks who sadly are being attacked from the inside by so called fans on a Knick site. SMH. Simply put, there is no room for any fan to wish for failure in order to advance their own selfish fanatasy about some unnamed coach magically turning our team into a defensive oriented team WHEN WE LACK DEFENDERS.
No, you did not refute my points and it is YOU who is overlooking reality in order to save face. I made several points and you simply characterized me as an apologist without actually countering a single point. You can claim you did but the evidence is here for anyone to see. Go ahead buddy, I dare you to show how you countered my points.
The comical thing about this is that you OVERLOOK the many times I have already stated that another coach would be more suited for this roster. I am not a D'ant lover and will shed no tears to see him go. The difference between me and you is that I debate from a position of reality where you debate from your own irrational feelings in emotionally driven, poorly thought out OP's like this thread. I can recognize that a traditional coach is more suited to our stregths now that we have the best ISO forward in the game and a 35 year old veteran who thrives in half court sets. I do this without hoping our team fails and collapses and do so without any delusion that another coach could make us anything close to an elite defensive team. See the difference? I doubt it...
But they did have chemistry and confidence prior to a blockbuster trade that drastically changed the look of our team. Yes, the chemistry has to be rebuilt hence why a playoff run is so important! Further individually players likke Melo, Amare and Billups have confidence that could be shaken by a total collapse and the media firestorm that would ultimately follow.
Whats obvious is how idiotic it is to think another coach can turn historically poor defensive players like Amare and Melo into defensive stoppers when no other coach could do so. My reasons for wanting another coach are purely from an offensive standpoint because our roster is now not built for SSOL. I know it would take a drastic change to our roster to ever attempt to rely on our defense above out scoring our opponent. Some additional pieces and a new coach could bring some more balance and I'm all for it but not at the expense of the playoffs!
Well you may have been trying to make that point but you used a completely inaccurate statement to do so. The teams below us are less talented and the teams above us are more talented, we are right where we are supposed to be! Had we kept our same roster we MIGHT be closing in on Atlanta who is also struggling after a major trade. You ignore the obvious...our struggles right now have a lot to do with the huge trade and frenetic schedule that has kept our team from being able to practice often and gel. We struggled in the beginning of the year for over a month while the team geled and now are doing so again. Why do I have to point out the obvious to you over and over again?
Whats funny about the above statement is that you are inadvertently acknowledging our team isn't ready to compete yet spend 90% of the time claiming another coach would make us contenders. That said, you have no idea how many games we will play in the playoffs so stop making that point as if it were anything but a negative prediction about the team you claim to be a fan of. BTW, playoff experience would be great for all the other players on our squad as well.
I want the same thing and have said so many times but I don't want to have a collapse to achieve that like you. I will always root for our team when they have a fighting chance to make a deep run. Our talent level is there and if we can come together and fire on all cylinders we have the POTENTIAL to beat any team in a 7 game series.
I wasn't praising myself more than I was teaching you the fundamentals of debating by example. It seems you finally tried to actually address my points so it looks like my tutelage is paying dividends. YOU"RE WELCOME!