FORGET Paul & Howard !!! Build a winner now.

[smokes]

The title of this thread conflicts with basic basketball logic.

Since when does not getting the best player available equate to " winning now"??

I could repeat myself yet again on the basic basketball points i have stated over the course of the last few months regarding this issue, but theyve already been forward in this thread by t r I l l I o n and red

But I will say this.. Chris Paul wants the Knicks. He doesn't have to re sign anywhere else. The rest is just other teams doing their due diligence. Teams like the lakers n the clippers can't just not make an attempt. But chris paul is in the driver seat. If he doesn't wanna go to Lakers or the Clippers he won't.

People bring up Deron Williams to new jersey but they forget that Jerry Sloan wanted him shipped out. He didnt like Deron. N the russian owner took a gamble and thinks he can resign him. last I heard deron said 90 percent chance he'll re sign with new jersey. Maybe prok was right. I would not be surprised if howard eventually ends up in brooklyn

Maybe we don't have the best package, but in today's nba that doesn't matter. the star players of serious freedom n options that seem to get minimized and overlooked by writers and a lot of the people on this forum.

Bottom line is if chris paul wants to be a knick he will be.

And getting him via trade absolutely, positively equates to winning now.

But are you really confident that Chris Paul wants the Knicks badly enough to play that card? He's already stated that he would be willing to go elsewhere. He's also stated he wants NO to get fair value for him. The Knicks cannot provide fair value for him, not even close.

Hell a team like the Lakers or especially the Clippers with their expirings may be willing to roll the dice like the Nets did and bank on the fact that they have some very solid players left over and potential to add Dwight in 2012 FA/via another trade.

This really isn't so much a discussion about whether getting CP3 or getting solid role players is a better solution, it's more about the fact that we are almost certainly not getting CP3 so lets do something about it now rather than play with a weaker team than necessary for a year.

I'd also like to add that the Knicks are getting very sloppy trading away picks we've already seen this bite us in the ass before and trading for CP3 is going to mean at least 1-2 more eventual first rounders disappearing. We are now trading away picks that will actually be important as they will be coming around at the time our current stars are on the way out. We need to stop with this and actually keep some assetts for our future.

 

[nyk_nyk]

He's already stated that he would be willing to go elsewhere. He's also stated he wants NO to get fair value for him.

The only thing CP3 has ever said was that his heart is in NO. You might wanna site your source.

 

[smokes]

The only thing CP3 has ever said was that his heart is in NO. You might wanna site your source.

Chris Paul may prefer to end up with the Knicks, but he realizes that it is not a realistic possibility to do so via trade.

"He has not asked for a trade to the Knicks because he knows the Knicks don't have anything to offer," the source said. "He wouldn't insult the Hornets by doing that."

The source did not confirm or deny reports that a representative for Paul told the Hornets that he wanted to be traded to the Knicks, but did say GM Dell Demps will not take any action until he hears directly from Paul.

The source also said that if Paul leaves the Hornets by way of trade, he would want the team to be satisfied with the assets they receive in return.

Ric Bucher/ESPN

Sources of sources

 

[ronoranina]

But are you really confident that Chris Paul wants the Knicks badly enough to play that card? He's already stated that he would be willing to go elsewhere. He's also stated he wants NO to get fair value for him. The Knicks cannot provide fair value for him, not even close.

Hell a team like the Lakers or especially the Clippers with their expirings may be willing to roll the dice like the Nets did and bank on the fact that they have some very solid players left over and potential to add Dwight in 2012 FA/via another trade.

This really isn't so much a discussion about whether getting CP3 or getting solid role players is a better solution, it's more about the fact that we are almost certainly not getting CP3 so lets do something about it now rather than play with a weaker team than necessary for a year.

I'd also like to add that the Knicks are getting very sloppy trading away picks we've already seen this bite us in the ass before and trading for CP3 is going to mean at least 1-2 more eventual first rounders disappearing. We are now trading away picks that will actually be important as they will be coming around at the time our current stars are on the way out. We need to stop with this and actually keep some assetts for our future.

I think Paul is being diplomatic when he says he'd play for other teams. He really has a firm grasp on how to handle the media. Do not under estimate his cunning.

I don't believe he really wants to play for anybody else. And I definitely don't agree that we are almost certainly not getting him. People said the same thing before we traded for Carmelo..

I don't buy it, not yet anyway.

I also believe it's okay to trade picks for legit greatness. To me this point is really not debatable. We're not talking about Isiah-type deals here.

 

[ronoranina]

Chris Paul may prefer to end up with the Knicks, but he realizes that it is not a realistic possibility to do so via trade.

"He has not asked for a trade to the Knicks because he knows the Knicks don't have anything to offer," the source said. "He wouldn't insult the Hornets by doing that."

The source did not confirm or deny reports that a representative for Paul told the Hornets that he wanted to be traded to the Knicks, but did say GM Dell Demps will not take any action until he hears directly from Paul.

The source also said that if Paul leaves the Hornets by way of trade, he would want the team to be satisfied with the assets they receive in return.

Ric Bucher/ESPN



Okay so when Paul tells Demps directly he won't sign with any other team this report will mean squat. This simply doesn't square with everything we've heard prior.

I'm still not convinced.

 

[smokes]

I think Paul is being diplomatic when he says he'd play for other teams. He really has a firm grasp on how to handle the media. Do not under estimate his cunning.

I don't believe he really wants to play for anybody else. And I definitely don't agree that we are almost certainly not getting him. People said the same thing before we traded for Carmelo..

I don't buy it, not yet anyway.

I also believe it's okay to trade picks for legit greatness. To me this point is really not debatable. We're not talking about Isiah-type deals here.

Not really sure why you would think that though. As a superstar PG would you rather play alongside Melo/Amare or Kobe/Howard. Seems like a no brainer to me. In fact any team that could get CP3 and Howard to team up would be just as good as we could be with CP3. Not to mention they probably wouldn't be in as much immediately dire cap situation etc etc.

Put Howard and Paul together and you can throw in whatever you like inbetween them a few average two-way players and you have a championship caliber team.

Our team with CP3 is not even a championship caliber team not with the current state of our 5 spot and our lack of defense. There's no real reason for NY to be the be all, end all destination for Chris Paul.

 

[nuckles2k2]

I'll pass on being the 2010 Bulls and filling up the roster with the "pieces" that are going to "get it done" around the superstar, only to fall flat on your face and look stupid with a roster that's gonna be out gunned unless someone takes a player that doesn't affect your team dynamic (Korver) for the 2-guard you desire. Or, you're gonna need someone to willingly get under paid (J-Rich, or Crawford...who I don't even think fits their need, but whatever.)

Whereas the Knicks just straight up have the cap space to add a 3rd legit superstar in the 3rd consecutive calendar year, even more unprecedented than Lebanon James and Christina Bosh joining the Chipmunk in what was considered a FA haul. I'd rather continue to fleece the league, gather superstars (who are the best at what they do) then worry about everything else.

These player's ARE NOT stupid, they want rings, and they hold leverage. Who, and I mean WHO? in their right mind passes up the opportunity to get Dwight Howard, CP3, or Deron, for DeAndre Jordan and Chuck Hayes.

I'm sorry, but that's stupid.

DeAndre and Chuck =/= JJ Barea, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, Jason Terry, and Jason Kidd. You guys act like it was "Dirk, and the rest of them *****s."

 

[ronoranina]

Not really sure why you would think that though. As a superstar PG would you rather play alongside Melo/Amare or Kobe/Howard. Seems like a no brainer to me. In fact any team that could get CP3 and Howard to team up would be just as good as we could be with CP3. Not to mention they probably wouldn't be in as much immediately dire cap situation etc etc.

Put Howard and Paul together and you can throw in whatever you like inbetween them a few average two-way players and you have a championship caliber team.

Our team with CP3 is not even a championship caliber team not with the current state of our 5 spot and our lack of defense. There's no real reason for NY to be the be all, end all destination for Chris Paul.[/quote]

The bolded is rubbish. Put him on this team and we are a championship caliber squad, easily IMO.

And I'm sorry, but do the Lakers have Howard yet?

Last I checked we already have Melo and Amare in place, and a system to proliferate max-ownage between the three and whomever you want to put at the 2 an 5 for the next 6 yrs.

The Lakers have more work to do then Knicks at this pont and they're way over the cap. Stop.

 

[smokes]

I'll pass on being the 2010 Bulls and filling up the roster with the "pieces" that are going to "get it done" around the superstar, only to fall flat on your face and look stupid with a roster that's gonna be out gunned unless someone takes a player that doesn't affect your team dynamic (Korver) for the 2-guard you desire. Or, you're gonna need someone to willingly get under paid (J-Rich, or Crawford...who I don't even think fits their need, but whatever.)

Whereas the Knicks just straight up have the cap space to add a 3rd legit superstar in the 3rd consecutive calendar year, even more unprecedented than Lebanon James and Christina Bosh joining the Chipmunk in what was considered a FA haul. I'd rather continue to fleece the league, gather superstars (who are the best at what they do) then worry about everything else.

These player's ARE NOT stupid, they want rings, and they hold leverage. Who, and I mean WHO? in their right mind passes up the opportunity to get Dwight Howard, CP3, or Deron, for DeAndre Jordan and Chuck Hayes.

I'm sorry, but that's stupid.

DeAndre and Chuck =/= JJ Barea, Shawn Marion, Tyson Chandler, Jason Terry, and Jason Kidd. You guys act like it was "Dirk, and the rest of them *****s."

What are you talking about we don't "straight up have the cap space". We don't even have enough to offer a max contract at best we are going to have 12-14 million spare next season, with like 4 players on our roster.

Plus this team is nothing like the Bulls who have 1 legit superstar and a bunch of role players. We have 2 legit superstars and a PG who can score too. We can actually put points on the board where the Bulls can't.

I also seriously can't understand how people think we have a hope in hell of getting Dwight there is no way that is ever happening seriously.

 

[smokes]

Our team with CP3 is not even a championship caliber team not with the current state of our 5 spot and our lack of defense. There's no real reason for NY to be the be all, end all destination for Chris Paul.[/quote]

The bolded is rubbish. Put him on this team and we are a championship caliber squad, easily IMO.

And I'm sorry, but do the Lakers have Howard yet?

Last I checked we already have Melo and Amare in place, and a system to proliferate max-ownage between the three and whomever you want to put at the 2 an 5 for the next 6 yrs.

The Lakers have more work to do then Knicks at this pont and they're way over the cap. Stop.

Ok so, if we get Chris Paul and play the same level of defense we played last year you think we have a shot at winning a ring? Our team of Paul, Anthony, Amare, an MLE player and a bunch of minimum contracts?

You realize if we trade for Chris Paul that is what our roster is going to look like right? No more Fields, no more Douglas, probably no more Iman or Jordan.

The Lakers may have more work to do they also have a ton more assetts than we do and a boatload more success in recent years. Everyone knows Dwight is open to playing in LA where he has already laughed off the idea of playing in NY.

Oh and you know CP3 also said he was open to being traded to the Magic?

Some of you guys need to take off your rose-tinted glasses and see the real picture here.

 

[ronoranina]

Ok so, if we get Chris Paul and play the same level of defense we played last year you think we have a shot at winning a ring? Our team of Paul, Anthony, Amare, an MLE player and a bunch of minimum contracts?

You realize if we trade for Chris Paul that is what our roster is going to look like right? No more Fields, no more Douglas, probably no more Iman or Jordan.

The Lakers may have more work to do they also have a ton more assetts than we do and a boatload more success in recent years. Everyone knows Dwight is open to playing in LA where he has already laughed off the idea of playing in NY.

Oh and you know CP3 also said he was open to being traded to the Magic?

Some of you guys need to take off your rose-tinted glasses and see the real picture here.

CP3 is being diplomatic. He's paying lip service to the idea of being traded to other teams, but he knows where he really wants to play. He doesn't want this thing to be played out poorly in the media and he's laying on the BS kind of thick at this point IMO.

And you're sounding very homerish talking of losing guys like Fields, Douglas etc.

I could care less if we lose them if it means we could get Paul. I care about the uniform. Could give a feck about players like that.

The only player recently I really didn't want to lose was Gallo. That hurt me. Totally over it now tho. Melo is LEGIT. Gallo may turn out to be what I said he was going to be and I may have to relive that pain but I'll cross that bridge when/if I come to it.

You trade anyone not named Melo and Amare for Paul and you don't look back.

Smokes this deal could easily get done:

Billups expiring
Fields
Douglas
Turiaf


.. and I think a deal gets done. Throw in a pick and cash if needed.

Just get him here. :gony:

 

[smokes]

CP3 is being diplomatic. He's paying lip service to the idea of being traded to other teams, but he knows where he really wants to play. He doesn't want this thing to be played out poorly in the media and he's laying on the BS kind of thick at this point IMO.

And you're sounding very homerish talking of losing guys like Fields, Douglas etc.

I could care less if we lose them if it means we could get Paul. I care about the uniform. Could give a feck about players like that.

The only player recently I really didn't want to lose was Gallo. That hurt me. Totally over it now tho. Melo is LEGIT. Gallo may turn out to be what I said he was going to be and I may have to relive that pain but I'll cross that bridge when/if I come to it.

You trade anyone not named Melo and Amare for Paul and you don't look back.

Smokes this deal could easily get done:

Billups expiring
Fields
Douglas
Turiaf


.. and I think a deal gets done. Throw in a pick and cash if needed.

Just get him here. :gony:

I'm not being homerish talking about them I'm saying we would have nothing left on our roster. A completely bare team with 3 superstars, two of which are not known for playing much defense.

At least Miami had 2 of their 3 players known for being lock down defenders. Plus Bosh really stepped it up on the defensive end last year. They also had legit role players in Chalmers, Haslem and Miller where we have jack squat.

Claiming that deal could "easily" get done is nonsense. The ONLY way a deal gets done with NY is IF Paul flat out refuses to extend with any other team, which is a BIG if. Add to that the fact that other teams have already put it out there that they would be willing to trade for Paul WITHOUT him agreeing to extend and those teams could also offer a much better deal, and your theory falls apart.

 

[LJ4ptplay]

Ok so, if we get Chris Paul and play the same level of defense we played last year you think we have a shot at winning a ring? Our team of Paul, Anthony, Amare, an MLE player and a bunch of minimum contracts?

You realize if we trade for Chris Paul that is what our roster is going to look like right? No more Fields, no more Douglas, probably no more Iman or Jordan.

The Lakers may have more work to do they also have a ton more assetts than we do and a boatload more success in recent years. Everyone knows Dwight is open to playing in LA where he has already laughed off the idea of playing in NY.

Oh and you know CP3 also said he was open to being traded to the Magic?

Some of you guys need to take off your rose-tinted glasses and see the real picture here.

You sound like me a year ago. Lol.

By the way, we wouldn't have an MLE player if we traded for him. This season would be Amare, Melo, CP3 + minimum salary players + minimum vets. I personally think that is an awful team and would not win anything.

 

[Oldtimer]

Cap Space

Assuming the expected -- that we do not get CP3 this season by a trade -- there is little we can do this year because we have no cap space.

I count Melo, Amare', Billups, Douglas, Fields, Turiaf, Shumpert, Harrelson and Balkman as the players to whom we are either committed or want to keep this season. The cap for this year is $58.44M. With these players we are over $60M. Other than a mid-level exception, we have nothing to offer anyone besides veterans' or lower minimums.

 

[TR1LL10N]

Again, CP3 is not the only prize available and any one of D12, D.Will or Cp3 would fill needs and is worth going after. I seriously doubt we fail to get one of these 3 with our market, cap space and stars being so attractive. Further, I think our management does not have on rose colored glasses and is better positioned to know our chances at getting that 3rd superstar than some forum naysayers. They have clearly concluded they have a good shot or else they would be looking at other options so lets not pretend these are internet wetdreams without a chance of coming to fruition.

 

[smokes]

You sound like me a year ago. Lol.

By the way, we wouldn't have an MLE player if we traded for him. This season would be Amare, Melo, CP3 + minimum salary players + minimum vets. I personally think that is an awful team and would not win anything.

Can you explain why we wouldn't have an MLE? We have the MLE available now right? So one way or another we could use it perhaps use it to sign a player before we pulled the trigger on the trade (if NO didn't insist on also getting that player as part of the deal)?

 

[ronoranina]

I'm not being homerish talking about them I'm saying we would have nothing left on our roster. A completely bare team with 3 superstars, two of which are not known for playing much defense.

At least Miami had 2 of their 3 players known for being lock down defenders. Plus Bosh really stepped it up on the defensive end last year. They also had legit role players in Chalmers, Haslem and Miller where we have jack squat.

Claiming that deal could "easily" get done is nonsense. The ONLY way a deal gets done with NY is IF Paul flat out refuses to extend with any other team, which is a BIG if. Add to that the fact that other teams have already put it out there that they would be willing to trade for Paul WITHOUT him agreeing to extend and those teams could also offer a much better deal, and your theory falls apart.

Why the bolded is so inconcievable is beyond me. This is the same nonsense we heard before the Melo deal last season. We heard the same things about NJ having a better package, other teams being able to put foward a better deal than the Knicks.

We also heard about teams possibly taking the chance and taking him as a rental then, which no one was willing to do.

But what happened?? We landed Melo.

In this league, right now, the star player controls his destiny. Maybe Paul will take more money elsewhere. If he does, that will be the only reason we don't get him. If he wants to be here he will be. Plain and simple. It won't be because we don't have enough to offer. I don't buy that nonsense.

You sound like me a year ago. Lol.

By the way, we wouldn't have an MLE player if we traded for him. This season would be Amare, Melo, CP3 + minimum salary players + minimum vets. I personally think that is an awful team and would not win anything.

Miami made it to the Finals with a bunch of vet minimum players.

And you didn't think we'd get Melo a year ago right?

 

[LJ4ptplay]

Can you explain why we wouldn't have an MLE? We have the MLE available now right? So one way or another we could use it perhaps use it to sign a player before we pulled the trigger on the trade (if NO didn't insist on also getting that player as part of the deal)?

Yes, you are right. We could sign someone to the MLE, then trade everybody else for CP3. I just don't see us using the MLE if our target is CP3 though. If we use the MLE, we cannot sign him next offseason. There won't be enough cap space. Everybody we sign during this year's free agency must be 1 year contracts if we plan on going after CP3 or Howard or Deron next year.

And the MLE can only be used during free agency (about two weeks long this year). I would be surprised if we traded for CP3 before the season starts, and that would be the only way we use the MLE.

 

[CuseGirl]

only chance we have at winning is if we take our dollars out of Dolan's pocket, then he'll let basketball people make basketball decisions.....we havent had a string of good drafts in years.....I dont see how we're gonna build a championship caliber 1 thru 8 between now and middle of next season.....

 

[smokes]

In this league, right now, the star player controls his destiny. Maybe Paul will take more money elsewhere. If he does, that will be the only reason we don't get him. If he wants to be here he will be. Plain and simple. It won't be because we don't have enough to offer. I don't buy that nonsense.

I disagree that it's the only reason. There are plenty of attractive teams out there beyond the Knicks. The Lakers have some nice pieces left over after trading Bynum/Pau and if they trade both it will be for a PG and a C. The Clippers have an awesome group of players and with Chris Paul would be like the next OKC.

Miami made it to the Finals with a bunch of vet minimum players.

Haslem, Chalmers, Anthony and Miller are not vet minimum players.

Yes, you are right. We could sign someone to the MLE, then trade everybody else for CP3. I just don't see us using the MLE if our target is CP3 though. If we use the MLE, we cannot sign him next offseason. There won't be enough cap space. Everybody we sign during this year's free agency must be 1 year contracts if we plan on going after CP3 or Howard or Deron next year.

And the MLE can only be used during free agency (about two weeks long this year). I would be surprised if we traded for CP3 before the season starts, and that would be the only way we use the MLE.

OK but it is conceivable. Especially since most deals are verbally confirmed before anything goes official. If we had the deal pretty much done we could potentially sign and seal a deal for an MLE player in that period and then pull the trigger on the trade. Unlikely but plausible.