Game Thread: New York Knicks vs Denver Nugets 1:00pm 2/7/2016
- Thread starter rady
- Start date
Yeah pretty good discussion. A trade assessed after it's completion is always about maximizing the value of assets, had they been held onto, in comparison to what assets acquired allowed team to accomplish and not how other teams used surrendered assets,(In particular picks).
Like if we had our 2014 and 2016 pick what kind of players do you think Phil and Clareance Gaines would've drafted or traded those picks for? Not what other teams did with those picks. Look at it this way if Denver or Toronto lands the #1 overall pick via lottery selection and end up drafting a Bust does that mean the pick had no value?
What Melo did in Denver has zero to do what he's done as a Knick. If we miss the playoffs this yr you all realize that will be 3 seasons of him not making the postseason as a Knick? Breaking down the apparent rebuild-retool misses around Melo only attest to the fact of maybe how difficult it is to do this around him. Which means he's not the ideal player to build around, never was. If the stars have to align perfectly and the wind has to be blowing at a distinct mph with the Sun and Moon shining in the sky simultaneously in order to win with him....let's move to another galaxy then.
I'm going to let Dolan off the hook slightly only since the Hire of Phil in terms of taking a back seat staying out of sight out of mind. He's let Phil work and Phil has gotten more done on Twitter than with this basketball team.
These results are the fault of Phil/Fisher/Melo if you want to fault Dolan for the hire of Phil well okay but those 3 are the main culprit at this point
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mafra
Legend
Melo might have lost twice to a lower seed... But both times the lower seed werent teams with more Ls.... Utah is perfct example.... Lower seed.... Yes. But had the same record as Melo that year. So, point to the one colossal upset Melo succombed to in the playoffs?
You said KP not in same universe as AD... I showed you that his rookie stats say otherwise. I didnt even talk about the intangibles.... Maturity, IQ, makeup make him seem older and wiser beyond his years... His passing skills (at time)... Maybe you should avoid hyperbole.
I mean... Comparing stats from a second round pick to a lottery pick says what exactly? Comparing the stats from the 4th pick in the draft, with the weight of those expectations, of a relatively unknown commodity to the 1st pick in the draft (a similar player... Both tall with unique offensive game... Who blocks shots).... What else do we have to go on? The hunch of a couch potato over every expert in the sport?
With that said... Yes... The Melo trade was a failure... But to say DEN won? No way. Denver was able to make sure Melo never could make in NY... Made it a pyrrhic victory.... But they never made it out of first round since the trade either.... Credit them for finding assets in the draft, and for slowly rebuilding... But that's bc their front office did a good job and they would've done the same thing even without the trade... Just like we bungled drafting Shumpert over Faired.
You said KP not in same universe as AD... I showed you that his rookie stats say otherwise. I didnt even talk about the intangibles.... Maturity, IQ, makeup make him seem older and wiser beyond his years... His passing skills (at time)... Maybe you should avoid hyperbole.
I mean... Comparing stats from a second round pick to a lottery pick says what exactly? Comparing the stats from the 4th pick in the draft, with the weight of those expectations, of a relatively unknown commodity to the 1st pick in the draft (a similar player... Both tall with unique offensive game... Who blocks shots).... What else do we have to go on? The hunch of a couch potato over every expert in the sport?
With that said... Yes... The Melo trade was a failure... But to say DEN won? No way. Denver was able to make sure Melo never could make in NY... Made it a pyrrhic victory.... But they never made it out of first round since the trade either.... Credit them for finding assets in the draft, and for slowly rebuilding... But that's bc their front office did a good job and they would've done the same thing even without the trade... Just like we bungled drafting Shumpert over Faired.
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Melo losing to the Jazz and Clippers is shameful and no matter how much lipstick you put on this pig of a result, it's never gonna look pretty. Take the cape off here and put it back on when more appropriate
mafra
Legend
Please explain? Plz post the records of both teams that year... Not like DEN was a 1 seed losing to a 8th seed.
Nobody is claiming Melo is a winner. He's only made it out of first round once? But he did make playoffs every year in DEN and 3 times in NY. How many playoff appearances NYK have since 2000? How many playoff series wins?
Dealing in absolutes is narrow-minded and short-sighted. Just bc I defend Melo, and the trade, doesn't infer the opposite of y'all's belief.... Not saying it worked out... Not saying Melo is a winner... Just pointing out, by playing devil's advocate, that saying the trade was a complete failure and Melo an utter loser... That is immature and foolish.
I mean... Come on... Do some of you actually believe we would've accumulated assets and built a winner around Galinari? And Chandler?
I would've hoped for Melo in free agency... Not make the trade.... But Dolan did that. Still, it's not the trade I regret. That didn't doom us.... It's how we managed affairs after the trade.
Still... Everybody has the right to crucify Melo. He said as much when we traded for him. He couldn't deliver and now he is breaking down... Burn the effigies and grab your pitch forks.
Nobody is claiming Melo is a winner. He's only made it out of first round once? But he did make playoffs every year in DEN and 3 times in NY. How many playoff appearances NYK have since 2000? How many playoff series wins?
Dealing in absolutes is narrow-minded and short-sighted. Just bc I defend Melo, and the trade, doesn't infer the opposite of y'all's belief.... Not saying it worked out... Not saying Melo is a winner... Just pointing out, by playing devil's advocate, that saying the trade was a complete failure and Melo an utter loser... That is immature and foolish.
I mean... Come on... Do some of you actually believe we would've accumulated assets and built a winner around Galinari? And Chandler?
I would've hoped for Melo in free agency... Not make the trade.... But Dolan did that. Still, it's not the trade I regret. That didn't doom us.... It's how we managed affairs after the trade.
Still... Everybody has the right to crucify Melo. He said as much when we traded for him. He couldn't deliver and now he is breaking down... Burn the effigies and grab your pitch forks.
mafra
Legend
Carmelo Anthony (sore left knee) has had two MRIs in the last three weeks, sources told Frank Isola of the New York Daily News.
Despite both coming back clean, "the concern over his long-term health is very real," per Isola. Obviously there are a number of things going wrong in New York right now, and Melo's health woes are right at the top of the list. If the soreness in his surgically-repaired knee doesn't improve after the All-Star break, Melo will be a shutdown candidate as the Knicks fall further and further out of the playoff race. Anthony's absence would mean more minutes for Langston Galloway, Derrick Williams and Lance Thomas while Kristaps Porzingis and Arron Afflalo would each assume a larger role in the offense.
Despite both coming back clean, "the concern over his long-term health is very real," per Isola. Obviously there are a number of things going wrong in New York right now, and Melo's health woes are right at the top of the list. If the soreness in his surgically-repaired knee doesn't improve after the All-Star break, Melo will be a shutdown candidate as the Knicks fall further and further out of the playoff race. Anthony's absence would mean more minutes for Langston Galloway, Derrick Williams and Lance Thomas while Kristaps Porzingis and Arron Afflalo would each assume a larger role in the offense.
We didn't have to hold on to them eternally? Couldn't we have systematically made trades improving the team gradually. I mean you think in just 1 prospect of KP(in a competitive draft class) gives a clear advantage going forward. You don't think similar could have happened back then with more assets on hand? I know you didn't just become a Knick fan in 2015
For the record
2005-2006 playoffs Denver was a 3rd seed(44-38) Clippers 6th seed(47-35)
2009-2010 playoffs Denver was a 4th seed(53-29) Utah 5th seed (53-29)
The fact you're caping so hard by focusing on regular season record(when the margins are practically a dead heat) instead of Melo being the difference in both series when his team had Home Court advantage is a huge shaking of head causing a headache.
I really could blow this particular subject matter wide open like I have before in the past that would expose Melo tremendously in these two results alone. Sometimes Mafra it does one well to trust those who've done extensive background check. Trust me this is a nail in coffin for Melo while in Denver and once again Denver results are Denver results. He did not achieve those things while a Knick.
mafra
Legend
My point was that technically Melo never lost to a team in the post season that had a worse record in the regular season than Melo.
Somebody called me out and said I was deceptive... I'm just pointing to fact... Utah had same record and clippers had the better record... They were lower seeds and had less talent but it still is truthful to say they didn't have worse reg season records...
This isn't Dirk losing to GSW.
So... I think I would stick to inability to escape the first round to poke fun of Melo... Saying he lost to significantly inferior teams... I don't buy that... There's plenty to say about Melo's lack of playoff success... But saying he has a bad upset on his resume... Not true. Utah won 53 games... Yet they stink?
I think Maggette did a good job playing defense for LAC... And I respect Brand and Cassell.
But I am tired of defending Melo.... I really don't care... I just want honesty here... And when I post a fact... I wont stand for it when my fact is questioned and refuted with an opinion. Reading comprehension people...
So, unless Melo lost in playoffs to a team with a worse record... Thus matter is over.
I concede... Melo isn't a winner. I waive white flag. Doesn't mean he's a loser tho.
Somebody called me out and said I was deceptive... I'm just pointing to fact... Utah had same record and clippers had the better record... They were lower seeds and had less talent but it still is truthful to say they didn't have worse reg season records...
This isn't Dirk losing to GSW.
So... I think I would stick to inability to escape the first round to poke fun of Melo... Saying he lost to significantly inferior teams... I don't buy that... There's plenty to say about Melo's lack of playoff success... But saying he has a bad upset on his resume... Not true. Utah won 53 games... Yet they stink?
I think Maggette did a good job playing defense for LAC... And I respect Brand and Cassell.
But I am tired of defending Melo.... I really don't care... I just want honesty here... And when I post a fact... I wont stand for it when my fact is questioned and refuted with an opinion. Reading comprehension people...
So, unless Melo lost in playoffs to a team with a worse record... Thus matter is over.
I concede... Melo isn't a winner. I waive white flag. Doesn't mean he's a loser tho.
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For what it's worth, having a hobby while you are watching Knicks games makes it easier to tolerate them during seasons like this. I don't think you can even say for sure we could be contending 3 or 4 years in the future. No guarantee we will be bad enough and lucky enough to get a high pick two drafts from now and even if we get a high pick next year, no guarantee we will get a stud.
Only quick way to turn a dud into a contender is to score huge in free agency and we struggle with that. We need a real good head coach and a real savvy front office and then we can start talking this franchise building into a contender.
no you can't have it both ways.. my point was landry fields a guy many was high on had better stats as a rookie than Harden, doesn't matter where they were drafted...
You see things in porzingis looking through your knicks glasses.. I will tell you this, another second round pick that denver has jokic has everything you say porzingis has and here is the kicker, he actually plays like a big man... You tend to want to change the story, the situation and the level of talent around any player in a knick uniform, from your defense of carmelo to your anointing porzings as the next coming.. I mean where is the objectivity here?
what i find so funny here is that you want porzingis to be so great, well how did the knicks get him? drafting, yet you still defend the ridiculous trade that brought carmelo here and cost us numerous picks and young players.. again can't have it both ways..
you can make all the excuses for carmelo, but the key is, he lost twice to lower seeds when in Denver, teams that he was supposed to be the difference maker against, the truth is, he never has been in denver and damn sure hasn't been in NY, nothing short of an utter failure... for what the knicks spent they just got pennies on the dollar.. the knicks could have done absolutely nothing over the past 5 years and still been in the same position if not better by default..
Denver not making out of the first round is meaningless, it has nothing to do with the knicks, Denver is pretty much set up to do whatever they want, and in the end, that is pretty much what they asked for when they were forced to trade that malcontent.. what did the knicks get?
nah you tried to use a fact to back up flawed defense of carmelo.. you are taking teams with the slightest of margins and making your statement.. as if a 2 game differential is more of a deciding factor between teams than homecourt advantage.. tell me what was the reason you even mentioned that? don't you think a more definitive argument was not losing to a team you were seeded higher than? because in the case of utah they had the same record, so lets say they are evenly matched, so now you look for advantages.. well wasn't that supposed to be carmelo and home court? and they still lost!
you can close the matter if you want but you made a meaningless comment to defend a loser... carmelo is a bum, a loser and the knicks deserve him.. I hope he stays his contract out and rots on the bench with his bum knees....
better yet, tell me how many teams did carmelo beat that had a better record than denver in the playoffs.. why set the bar so low? set it high? when did he ever make the difference? when? too bad he couldn't carry all that greatness over to the knicks... smh
the knicks are going on 3 seasons with no playoffs, and another with no lottery pick.... this trade to me goes down as the worst in history...
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who knows?
but tell me how did the other plan work out?
And I don't feel sorry for carmelo one bit.. he came here for a money grab, didn't care about the fans, not you, not me, not anyone.. loser mentality coupled with a loser owner..
yes he deserves to be crucified... Greater , much greater men have gone through more and didn't get 125 mil for it either..
There have been many mythical like things serenaded Melo's way, like how Clutch he is. I thought this was an interesting link...
http://hoopshype.com/2016/02/09/the-many-buzzer-beaters-of-joe-johnson/
Good thing Brooklyn has THAT GUY you know THAT GUY when the game is on the line who you can go to get that last shot. THAT GUY who's a GO TO when the team needs to GO TO HIM so he can PUT THEM ON HIS BACK
Oh wait I thought we were the only team who had THAT GUY and Brooklyn's season isn't going well at all with THAT OTHER GUY who's THAT GUY. What was it I always said about playing in tight games...uhmmmm.....uhnmmmmmm....uuhhhh
http://hoopshype.com/2016/02/09/the-many-buzzer-beaters-of-joe-johnson/
Good thing Brooklyn has THAT GUY you know THAT GUY when the game is on the line who you can go to get that last shot. THAT GUY who's a GO TO when the team needs to GO TO HIM so he can PUT THEM ON HIS BACK
Oh wait I thought we were the only team who had THAT GUY and Brooklyn's season isn't going well at all with THAT OTHER GUY who's THAT GUY. What was it I always said about playing in tight games...uhmmmm.....uhnmmmmmm....uuhhhh
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that last one vs Denver got me sick.. LOL.. but as you said, JOE has been a clutch player for many years, and honestly it hasn't really made the difference for any of the teams he has been on, and I watched him for many years here in Atlanta as I was a season ticket holder for a few years..
in the end, I hate games coming down to that, I rather my stars be on the bench chillin as we close out games by 10+ points haha
KAT is the ROY hands down. He may not only be the best rookie but the best 5 in the WC as well. Put up 35/11 against Toronto and is averaging 23/12 over his last 8 games.
He's going to be in the Skills Challenge on AS weekend, that should be fun seeing a 7 footer competing in a passing and ball handling contest.
MN is using him correctly unlike the Knicks with KP. Most of his points were dunks or layups, took 13 FTs and the longest shot I saw him take was an 18ft baseline jumper. Didn't attempt 1 three even though he's a higher % 3 pt. shooter than KP. Plays like a 7 ft big and not a wing like KP plays.
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KAT is a very good player, a lot of upside for sure, but he always played like a big who can shoot even in college.. so it is no shocker that he plays that way on the next level. Porzingis always played like a perimeter big. He never had an inside game.the knicks are using him and letting him do what he knows how to do, and that has resulted in a pretty good start. If they tried to use him any other way, I am not sure you would be happy with the results..
Messina thinks the Knicks may ruin the kid if they make him a traditional big, he's heard Rambis wants to use him in the post more.
The kid isn't like Chandler who could never learn how to play with his back to the basket, I think he could be dominant. That's one of my criteria for Rambis getting the HC job, how he develops KP and JG.
Not knocking your observation here but this would totally crap on all the past talk of drafting a talented professional Euro/Foreign prospect over a talented collegiate prospect.
How many yrs did we have to hear about how a Euro playing professionally as early as 16yrs of age into his new beginning 20s was such a huge advantage over a college player especially if the college player spent a couple yrs, before declaring?
We've heard over and over, more recently how dumbed down the College system is. So which is it... Foreign Professional Prospect or Leave Early College Phenom?
Matter of fact don't we have one of #kporzee's teammates overseas right now Hernangomez. So is he no better than Brandon Ingram of Duke(should he declare) because Ingram was coached by Coach K?
The Wolves are trying to trade Rubio let's stop overplaying the point guard angle. While we know we have a disaster back there that's not really the issue when it comes to #kporzee. It's more about his style of play and true position he'll take on as his career moves along.
Another example to look at is Okafor and Ish Smith. Okafor was pretty much putting up the same numbers before and after Ish arrived. When he was going through a rut that would be like Philly fans blaming the point guards(T.J. and Cannon were bad but) Okafor issues were off the court. Okafor has been solid for the most part because he has a refined game inside the arc although the point guards he's playing with are still marginal to slightly above average. None of whom before the season started, when the scoreboard was 0-0 would have declared better than Calderon.
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