I don't like Billiups!
- Thread starter TR1LL10N
- Start date
TR1LL10N
Hannibal Lecter
Maybe you think that a players age or the fact he is in decline is not an issue but I think it is certainly relevant. I am not whining about anything, he is overpaid NOW regardless of when his contract was structured and is worth pointing out.
Yes, he brings intangibles and you are repeating what I myself said in the first few pages of the thread. What he doesn't bring is consistent assists or defense. I maintain that regardless of who our coach is or what system we employ he is not the right PG to MAXIMIZE Amare. Any PG can dump the ball to a superstar in an ISO situation but it takes a certain type of PLAYMAKER to feed Amare the ball in motion allowing him to do what Amare does best...FINISH.
AGAIN:
BTW, I think my point that the main reason for our struggles was Billups has been proven right considering that since he started playing well we have not lost. I just don't have confidence that he will continue to play at a high level at 34 years old or continue to dish verse scoring. I want our megastars taking the shots at the end of the game and a PG who can get them the ball to do so within the confines of a fluid offense. Defense from the PG position would be nice too. (Toronto's backcourt was a major reason they made that game competitive)
Listen, you have your opinion and I have mine. I think the stats and historic styles back up my case while you are using past glory and subjective intangibles to back up yours. Neither are wrong and both have the potential to be right on any given night. I happen to value actual production over leadership and believe that production translates directly into Amare's effectiveness. I also think a players contract verse his worth is important when evaluating our decisions moving forward. No one is advocating cutting Billups before the end of the season so factoring in his contract next year is MORE THAN RELEVANT.
KnicksFanFromQueens1985
Banned
Billups won't be getting 14-15M next season from the Knicks & his current contract has no effect on us as of right now. The trade deadline is long gone, we can't improve our team until the offseason to begine with. The only thing Billups is worth to us right now is 2M if & when we buy hin out.
Wake me up when A) Felton becomes a starter over the same Lawson who couldn't srart over Billups. B) Felton leds a team to the playoffs, with an above .500 record. C) leads that team out of the 1st round. D) Leads his team to the Finals as a starter. E) Wins his Franchise a championship F) Earns a Finals MVP award.
Some can say thats in the past, but then again... So are all the rings Kobe won. The past is the past but that doesn't change the fact that both players still have a future. What has Felton done in the past? Nothing. Failed to lead his below .500 team out of the 1st round.
Billups was proven long before Melo, Amare or MDA. Felton? Had a career year because of A) MDA's offensive system & B) Amare himself.
Wake me up when A) Felton becomes a starter over the same Lawson who couldn't srart over Billups. B) Felton leds a team to the playoffs, with an above .500 record. C) leads that team out of the 1st round. D) Leads his team to the Finals as a starter. E) Wins his Franchise a championship F) Earns a Finals MVP award.
Some can say thats in the past, but then again... So are all the rings Kobe won. The past is the past but that doesn't change the fact that both players still have a future. What has Felton done in the past? Nothing. Failed to lead his below .500 team out of the 1st round.
Billups was proven long before Melo, Amare or MDA. Felton? Had a career year because of A) MDA's offensive system & B) Amare himself.
TR1LL10N
Hannibal Lecter
We are after the trade deadline so this discussion has always been about what to do moving forward. You are basically agreeing with me that Billups won't get 14Mil from us and that is my main point! He does not deserve it and should be bought out to save us money or traded to fill needs.
Red
TYPE-A
Only you can bury someone on the net...smh
I beg to differ, it was your assertions that led to your nickname (one of many) KOL's resident nerd. Its a shame.
And judging by the abundance of posters who disagree with your failed acknowledgement of CB's talents...
Even your opinion was wrong. Lol
"I was right about, I'm right about, your wrong, etc..." -such miniscule terms should be reserved for the childrens forum.
KnicksFanFromQueens1985
Banned
No one is saying Billups is worth 14M. That still doesn't change the fact that we have a much better chance of winning a championship this year with Billups running the point when compared to Felton. Am I expecting a ring? No way. Do I dream of one? Of course. Billiups runs an outstanding half court offesne. MDA or no MDA, as we all know... You need a very productive half court set to advance in the playoffs. Even Nash ran a strong half court during the playoffs for PHX.
With Billups @ PG? Melo is coming off of his best week's ever & also took home the player of the week award.
Not even CP3 is worth a MAX (for this NY team) so of course I don't feel any PG is worth more than 5M when A) we need a strong FA Center in the worst way & B) TD23 is an offensive X-Factor who can shoot the 3 (What MDA needs) & also brings us excellent D' (what this team needs).
Why would we pay ANY PG over 5M when we have TD23 & a huge 5 hole? No one is saying he's worth 15M. We're just making it known he's a winner & warrior.
With Billups @ PG? Melo is coming off of his best week's ever & also took home the player of the week award.
Not even CP3 is worth a MAX (for this NY team) so of course I don't feel any PG is worth more than 5M when A) we need a strong FA Center in the worst way & B) TD23 is an offensive X-Factor who can shoot the 3 (What MDA needs) & also brings us excellent D' (what this team needs).
Why would we pay ANY PG over 5M when we have TD23 & a huge 5 hole? No one is saying he's worth 15M. We're just making it known he's a winner & warrior.
nyk_nyk
All Star
Amare is still putting up his numbers so what are you complianing about???
Melo has been putting up superstar numbers so what are you complaining about???
Both Melo and Amare get their load of shot attempts so what are you complaining about??
Felton didn't bring consistent assists or defense so why are you complaining?? (just to be clear, I like Felton but don't act like he didn't have plenty of off games)
Having a PG who can stretch the defense is very valuable so what are you complaining about???
Newsflash: Amare has to be in motion for him to get the ball in motion. Most of the time Amare is set up to take a jumpshot. If you have a problem with that then IT IS THE COACH'S JOB TO DEVELOP MORE MOTION IN THE OFFENSE TO CREATE MORE OF THOSE OPPORTUNITIES.
Red
TYPE-A
I'm looking for the banging your head against a wall emoticon. Oh' here it goes... the pic speaks for itself. Why bother?
:wallbash:
Trill, if you don't know basketball, why are you posting so much in a basketball forum?
KnicksFanFromQueens1985
Banned
Come on now... No need to bash TR1LL10N & call him out for being a fan who doesn't know basketball. This man knows a lot about the Knicks & basketball & he's also a good member of this site. I'm ablt to agree to disagree without attacking the man.
The fans who made it known that Billups was struggling because he wasn't 100% were 100% correct. Since Billups made it known he's been 100% the Knicks are 4-0. For the fans who made it known Billups was struggling learning this offense; we were also correct. But I can't attack a good fan for not wanting to pay a 35 year old 14 Million.
The fact of the matter is this... We have a champion running the offense. A veteran leader who's developing TD23 into an up & comer with MDA. A playoff warrior on the verge of heading into another playoff war in Billups. A team leader. Good role-model for the younger talents. Hark working-work ethic. Plays with heart & pride. A very SMART defensive player. I can't complain. We have an All-Star running the offensive show.
The fans who made it known that Billups was struggling because he wasn't 100% were 100% correct. Since Billups made it known he's been 100% the Knicks are 4-0. For the fans who made it known Billups was struggling learning this offense; we were also correct. But I can't attack a good fan for not wanting to pay a 35 year old 14 Million.
The fact of the matter is this... We have a champion running the offense. A veteran leader who's developing TD23 into an up & comer with MDA. A playoff warrior on the verge of heading into another playoff war in Billups. A team leader. Good role-model for the younger talents. Hark working-work ethic. Plays with heart & pride. A very SMART defensive player. I can't complain. We have an All-Star running the offensive show.
TR1LL10N
Hannibal Lecter
Show me where I said his numbers would stay the same regardless of injury...yet another textbook logical fallacy from you! Now its the strawman argument that you created in the place of my many points. SMH. What a revelation!!!! NOT. Of course a healthy player is going to have better numbers and contribute more! AGAIN I am looking at Billups HISTORY, not his production while injured. How many times must I tell you before you get that!? :wallbash:Talk about a brick wall...
Actually, no he isn't. SMH. His FG% and scoring is down so please look before you type.
Melo is an ISO player and I have not complained about MElo. In fact I have said more than once that any PG can dump the ball to a star for an ISO play...
Amare's production is down and thats a fact proven by the above stat line of his last 10 games. The last two games they are back up and surprise surprise Billups happened to have more assists than the NORM. As Clyde would say...it's an aberration and not consistent with Billups historical numbers hence my point. If we have a consistent pass first PG Amare's numbers would be consistent. (notice the use of consistent)
A yearly average is the best way of seeing what the norm is and his averages were more than 3+ assists, more rebounds, more steals and better FG% with only around 1 point less than Billups. That was done without a second superstar...
Sure but with Melo, Amare and players like Shawne Williams who can know down the 3 it is more important to have an orchestrator and defender. Again, in crunch time I much rather have Amare and Melo taking shots than our PG.
NEWSFLASH...it's on the PG to facilitate the offense, break down the defense and put Amare in a position to cut to the basket...sheesh! The COACH had Amare in motion just fine with Nash and Felton so how can it be MDA's fault? Further, Amare was putting up MVP numbers with Felton running the show and now his points are down.
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TR1LL10N
Hannibal Lecter
It's funny that the person question my knowledge has gone pages and pages without an ontopic post. If I lacked knowledge it would be easy to debate me yet he is 0 for 1000000 against me and he knows it in his heart. The same poster who manically makes threads that the season is over and then we are making the EC finals then we are doomed then MDA cares about defense. The dude obviously needs to re-up on his meds...
ronoranina
Fundamentally Sound
I couldn't really zoom in on that emoticon because I used my phone for that message. I meant everything but the mad face. And, you're right we can do better, and we will hopefully by bringing in Paul down the road. The thing I want to get across though is just because Billups doesn't put up traditionally good PG numbers, that doesn't preclude him from being able to play really well for us, while making everyone around him better.
My point is that even at 35 Billups can still be more than adequate for the remainder of this season and next. He's still pretty good Trill.. And he can do more than string just a couple of games together. I think you'll be proved of this fact as the season ends and the playoffs roll around.
You didn't roast yourself w this thread by any means, like some other people.. (Red), but not liking Billups and saying he's lost his game at the age of 35 are two different things entirely. His heart seems to be in this thing as well.
TR1LL10N
Hannibal Lecter
Adequate is just not good enough for 14 mil a year.
Yes, there are plenty of great scoring PG's who don't put up big assists or who don't defend and there is a place for them. My point is that we do not need that type of PG when you have Amare and Melo, two of the most prolific scorers in the game. We need someone who excels at getting them the ball and defending NOT SCORING.
KnicksFanFromQueens1985
Banned
Just because Melo & Amare are great, doesn't mean we can only have "2 scorers". Get real. This is a team game. Not the "Melo & Amare 2 vs 5 show".
I'd love to have TD23 as our future PG. Potential to become our THIRD great scorer who can average 17-20 as a scoring PG as well as play the type of D' that your looking for.
Also... Lets stop with this 14M talk. Any fan with half a brain, who understands our cap situation not only knows... But also understands that we're buying Billups' contract out for 2M. Why do you keep brining up "14M"? That was a contract he earned from DEN due to his Championship days with DET...
Melo & Amare will only get you around 30 per & 60-65 combined on GOOD nights. They won't be putting up 40+ per as a duo anytime soon. That still leaves 40 points for the TEAM to score 100. In our case? We score about 110. That leaves 50 after Melo & Amare combine 60. It's GREAT to have Billups who can put up 20. TD who can put up 15 & a PG duo who can combine for 35 + the Stat n Melo 60 = 95.....
I'd love to have TD23 as our future PG. Potential to become our THIRD great scorer who can average 17-20 as a scoring PG as well as play the type of D' that your looking for.
Also... Lets stop with this 14M talk. Any fan with half a brain, who understands our cap situation not only knows... But also understands that we're buying Billups' contract out for 2M. Why do you keep brining up "14M"? That was a contract he earned from DEN due to his Championship days with DET...
Melo & Amare will only get you around 30 per & 60-65 combined on GOOD nights. They won't be putting up 40+ per as a duo anytime soon. That still leaves 40 points for the TEAM to score 100. In our case? We score about 110. That leaves 50 after Melo & Amare combine 60. It's GREAT to have Billups who can put up 20. TD who can put up 15 & a PG duo who can combine for 35 + the Stat n Melo 60 = 95.....
TR1LL10N
Hannibal Lecter
Dude please stop. You are making statements that I never made and arguing points I agree with. No one said we should only have scoring from our two stars. It's called PRIORITIES! Our priority at PG is not scoring, it orchestrating and defense.
Rebounding is important too but no one would advocate a team consisting of:
Rodman
Ben Wallace
Kevin Love
Bill Russell
Elvin Hayes
It's about balance and MAXIMIZING our stars not forsaking all other scoring threats in place of our stars...
I bring up the 14Mil because at 2Mil Billups is perfectly acceptable for his leadership alone. Again, Billups is our PG to the end of the year so this is really a discussion about what to do moving forward. Further, you are dead wrong asserting that it is a given that we are buying out Billups. Care to back that statement up with actual proof?
nyk_nyk
All Star
Yeah no shit dummy because now we have Melo and he doesn't have to take over the scoring burden by himself! WTF is wrong with you????
Also Amare's production (last 10 games) is down for a variety of reasons yet you chose to use that to support your CB hate. Lame. Amare had his worst game of the season against MIA when Felton was running the point, so there I threw out a fact as well.
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KnicksFanFromQueens1985
Banned
I don't need "proof" through the media. I know the game of basketball.
The Knicks would be the worst franchise in NBA history to give any 35 year old PG 14M. When was the last time, if ever, that a 35 year old PG got a new contract for 14-15M? lol Thats all the proof I need.
Walsh may or may not be back, but Walsh has a plan & that plan has nothing to do with giving Billups "14M per year".
Let me ask you a question. Lets see if you answer it bro. You keep talking about "experience or leadership" (both worth more than just 2M) but I've yet to see you talk about his production since becoming a Knick (other than from when he was recovering from an injury & less than 100% healthy as a way to bash him).
Can you answer this question? Or do you refuse to admit the fact's? Prove me wrong; because you don't wanna prove me right by turning cheek...
How many points, assists, steals, rebounds & turnovers has Billups combined 4 since being 100% healthy during these past 4 games? Lets talk about healthy production.
The Knicks would be the worst franchise in NBA history to give any 35 year old PG 14M. When was the last time, if ever, that a 35 year old PG got a new contract for 14-15M? lol Thats all the proof I need.
Walsh may or may not be back, but Walsh has a plan & that plan has nothing to do with giving Billups "14M per year".
Let me ask you a question. Lets see if you answer it bro. You keep talking about "experience or leadership" (both worth more than just 2M) but I've yet to see you talk about his production since becoming a Knick (other than from when he was recovering from an injury & less than 100% healthy as a way to bash him).
Can you answer this question? Or do you refuse to admit the fact's? Prove me wrong; because you don't wanna prove me right by turning cheek...
How many points, assists, steals, rebounds & turnovers has Billups combined 4 since being 100% healthy during these past 4 games? Lets talk about healthy production.