LETS END IT NOW: Mike D'antoni Edition
- Thread starter MSGKnickz33
- Start date
GetRealistic, GoKnIcKsDLEE42, jpz17, OriginalKnickGrandson, TR1LL10N
If Dantoni is still coaching the Knicks next season, I would like each one of u to bet $1 dollar on each of the 82 games next season, then explain to yourself at rhe end of the season why Damntoni is not worth the dollar u betted on him.
:beer:
My biggest problem with Marbury was he never improved his teammates performance.
Damntoni only improved one player performance under his coaching (Diaw).
Name me one Knick Player Damntoni improve his performance in the 2 seasons he been in New York???
I will reserve my judgment until next year.
Anyone who has played pro sports knows damn well that sh*t players are just that. No coach in the world will change that. NO COACH.
Prime example: Kwame Brown, phil jackson really did nothing to improve his game. Kwame was horrible from day one, he was horrible with the lakers, and he was horrible after the lakers. I think Phil's health became worse when he thought he could turn this player into something. I swear veins were bursting in his head when Kwame was on the floor screwing up.
We have a team full of them.
Nate Robinson - Same player since high school. Didn't matter the coach. Same game.
Jarred Jefferies - Same offensive awkward, defensive player since college. Never changed.
David Lee - Rebounds, put backs, and dunks. Same player in Florida, except he developed a good jump shot, good for him.
Al Harrington - Same lazy player who could so much more. Same game since day one. That is why he bounced from team to team.
Eddy Curry - Not even going there.
Duhon - Was not that great in Duke. Worse in the NBA. System player. System players fail in the NBA. Duhon failed.
I could go on.
All of these players had many coaches. They all failed to bring their game to another level. Even if those coaches were horrible, if a player cares about improving their game they will do everything they can to improve it on their own.
Do you really think a player really learns everything from a coach at the pro level? You gotta be kidding me. There are so many people whose hands are in their development, in the end its up to the player to give a damn to improve.
If David Lee wanted to learn how to defend you do not think he would go find someone to learn from?
Do you not read articles about X player going to old timers or other coaches to learn how to improve X part of their game?
Hate D'antoni because he made questionable decisions.
Hate D'antoni because you do not like his system.
Hate D'antoni because he has been inconsistent.
But do not hate D'antoni because our players already sucked, still sucked, and will suck.
And I hope you guys realize D'antoni gave up a long time ago. If you ever watched him in Phoenix he was not like this. Ever play on a real sh*t team before? Tell me how you felt?
In the end, he doesn't give a damn because WE SUCK. Next year we have a new team. Next year we have a team for him to actually teach and develop.
Next year, if we suck with good players then he needs to go!
Anyone who has played pro sports knows damn well that sh*t players are just that. No coach in the world will change that. NO COACH.
Prime example: Kwame Brown, phil jackson really did nothing to improve his game. Kwame was horrible from day one, he was horrible with the lakers, and he was horrible after the lakers. I think Phil's health became worse when he thought he could turn this player into something. I swear veins were bursting in his head when Kwame was on the floor screwing up.
We have a team full of them.
Nate Robinson - Same player since high school. Didn't matter the coach. Same game.
Jarred Jefferies - Same offensive awkward, defensive player since college. Never changed.
David Lee - Rebounds, put backs, and dunks. Same player in Florida, except he developed a good jump shot, good for him.
Al Harrington - Same lazy player who could so much more. Same game since day one. That is why he bounced from team to team.
Eddy Curry - Not even going there.
Duhon - Was not that great in Duke. Worse in the NBA. System player. System players fail in the NBA. Duhon failed.
I could go on.
All of these players had many coaches. They all failed to bring their game to another level. Even if those coaches were horrible, if a player cares about improving their game they will do everything they can to improve it on their own.
Do you really think a player really learns everything from a coach at the pro level? You gotta be kidding me. There are so many people whose hands are in their development, in the end its up to the player to give a damn to improve.
If David Lee wanted to learn how to defend you do not think he would go find someone to learn from?
Do you not read articles about X player going to old timers or other coaches to learn how to improve X part of their game?
Hate D'antoni because he made questionable decisions.
Hate D'antoni because you do not like his system.
Hate D'antoni because he has been inconsistent.
But do not hate D'antoni because our players already sucked, still sucked, and will suck.
And I hope you guys realize D'antoni gave up a long time ago. If you ever watched him in Phoenix he was not like this. Ever play on a real sh*t team before? Tell me how you felt?
In the end, he doesn't give a damn because WE SUCK. Next year we have a new team. Next year we have a team for him to actually teach and develop.
Next year, if we suck with good players then he needs to go!
Crazy⑧s
Evacuee
New New York! Praise his name!
This debate can be analysed in the simplest of ways.
Dunno how many times it's been repeated, but does anyone honestly think that an Auerbach, Riley, Phil Jackson, Kryszewskie even James Naismith himself lead this team to even 40 wins?
It's a stalemate!
Our defense has been good of late, more so individually than as a team because------- Nate's gone, Duhon's out, Tmac, Walker and Douglas are in.
I'm still positive that Mike would prefer a high octane, showtime offense as his chief means of winning, but blaming a less inclined (borderline sub par?) defensive coach on the efforts of a pack of butt maggots is a little unfair no?
If the plan fails, Mike will fail. Until then, you can't blame the guy for a lack of success with unsuccessful personel.
Now... I'm not defending some of the guy's wayward subbing, or obvious moments of a lack in clarity, I'm just saying..... Our team is shit. That's it. I don't think he deserves the scapegoat treatment.
This debate can be analysed in the simplest of ways.
Dunno how many times it's been repeated, but does anyone honestly think that an Auerbach, Riley, Phil Jackson, Kryszewskie even James Naismith himself lead this team to even 40 wins?
It's a stalemate!
.
Our defense has been good of late, more so individually than as a team because------- Nate's gone, Duhon's out, Tmac, Walker and Douglas are in.
I'm still positive that Mike would prefer a high octane, showtime offense as his chief means of winning, but blaming a less inclined (borderline sub par?) defensive coach on the efforts of a pack of butt maggots is a little unfair no?
If the plan fails, Mike will fail. Until then, you can't blame the guy for a lack of success with unsuccessful personel.
Now... I'm not defending some of the guy's wayward subbing, or obvious moments of a lack in clarity, I'm just saying..... Our team is shit. That's it. I don't think he deserves the scapegoat treatment.
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TR1LL10N
Hannibal Lecter
jimkcchief88
All Star
+1 Good post here. As much as I hate D'ant for drafting his godson, nobody could coach these nobodies we have. There are two coaching philosophies: take inventory of your talent(or lack thereof) and adjust what you do that, or have a system and find players to play in your system. Obviously D'ant ain't changin' for nobody, so you can't truly evaluate the job he is doing until this time next year when he has his players. If we are still having this conversation this time next year, cut his ***.
GetRealistic
Starter
Yup total mistake not hiring Marc Jackson. Total mistake not hiring a guy who hasn't even been an assistant coach in the league.
If the "2010" plan works and we add quality talent to the roster this offseason i will give Mike D'Antoni 50 games next season. And if the team isn't a stone cold lock playoff team that has atleast a chance at a championship i'll admit i'm wrong. But come on people, go back to before the season and look at all of our predictions. Nobody expected this team to be good. We all said best case we'd maybe grab the 8th seed. This season and record shouldn't be a suprise to anybody.
You can't win without talent. And in the NBA you can't win without a superstar and we don't have one. This is a superstar league.
Sidenote when we had Jefferies, Hughes, and Duhon playing we were a good defensive team. Remember back to late November thru early Jan we played good defense. But Jefferies had to be traded for the 2010 plan and Hughes and duhon were too much of a detriement on the offensive side of the court to stay on the floor.
And KIYA i'll gladly take that bet. Because if given players D'Antoni will atleast have this team at .500 next year.
If the "2010" plan works and we add quality talent to the roster this offseason i will give Mike D'Antoni 50 games next season. And if the team isn't a stone cold lock playoff team that has atleast a chance at a championship i'll admit i'm wrong. But come on people, go back to before the season and look at all of our predictions. Nobody expected this team to be good. We all said best case we'd maybe grab the 8th seed. This season and record shouldn't be a suprise to anybody.
You can't win without talent. And in the NBA you can't win without a superstar and we don't have one. This is a superstar league.
Sidenote when we had Jefferies, Hughes, and Duhon playing we were a good defensive team. Remember back to late November thru early Jan we played good defense. But Jefferies had to be traded for the 2010 plan and Hughes and duhon were too much of a detriement on the offensive side of the court to stay on the floor.
And KIYA i'll gladly take that bet. Because if given players D'Antoni will atleast have this team at .500 next year.
nyk_nyk
All Star
How Do you put Douglas on this list? He just started playing.
Jeffries really didn't get better. He just got more minutes and got the opportunity to shoot more.
Lee is debatable here. He worked on his jumper during the offseason without Dantoni. However, Dantoni continuing to run the pick and roll for Lee did lead to a higher individual scoring average.
Not really sure about Chandler. I can barely remember his good games because he's so invisible.
MSGKnickz33
The Gold Mac
Antoni is capable of having a team system that can lead to alot of regular season success, but I do not have confidence in his ability to teach a team to be good enough on defense to make it to the next level. I dont think hes a championship coach. We'll be like the Dallas Mavericks who have won 50+ games for 10 straight seasons but never got that championship and if we do happen to get a championship, it will be because of the players. Doc Rivers made alot of stupid mistakes when Bumston won the championship in 08, but luckily for him he had so much talent on his team that it didnt matter. And he also had a very good defensive assistant coach. Mike D'antoni should think about hiring an assistant coach that specializes in defense.
1) I wouldnt make that bet. Depending on who we get, we can potentially be significantly better next year. If we were to land lebrick, damntoni wouldnt really be the coach similar to how Mike Brown is a fool in Cleveland, but lebroke makes him look like a good coach. Any coach can look good if he has the right players, just like how Nash, the Matrix, and amare made D'antoni look better then he is in phoenix.
2) The last time Eddy Curry was relevant was because of Stephon Marbury.
Nice job with the subliminals...puttin Team D'antoni members in purple :lol:
You make a good point about our predictions, but what about Antoni's predictions? Didnt he say his goal was to get us to the playoffs, in order to make us more enticing to free agents?
I agree with just about everything you said except two things
1) I wouldnt make that bet. Depending on who we get, we can potentially be significantly better next year. If we were to land lebrick, damntoni wouldnt really be the coach similar to how Mike Brown is a fool in Cleveland, but lebroke makes him look like a good coach. Any coach can look good if he has the right players, just like how Nash, the Matrix, and amare made D'antoni look better then he is in phoenix.
2) The last time Eddy Curry was relevant was because of Stephon Marbury.
Nice job with the subliminals...puttin Team D'antoni members in purple :lol:
You make a good point about our predictions, but what about Antoni's predictions? Didnt he say his goal was to get us to the playoffs, in order to make us more enticing to free agents?
TR1LL10N
Hannibal Lecter
Douglas is playing better now then he did just months ago.
Jefferies most certainly played his best ball in years and showed a marked defensive improvement under the tutelage of Dant.
Lee had back to back career years under Dant and is still improving.
Chandler has had his two best years under Dant.
Obviously players need to work on their games and recognize their short comings but a coach helps. Further if Dant is not responsible for any of these improvements then why should he hold the blame for the Knicks failings? Seems like many want to attack Dant on all his perceived failings yet want to deny any positive impact he may have.
MSGKnickz33
The Gold Mac
Well, its tough to say how much of D'antoni's coaching is responsible for the development of our young players. Young players with potential are bound to improve as they practice and gain more experience. David Lee has shown some improvement every year, which goes back to when Isiah was the coach. Stats might not back this up under Isiah, but thats because we had ZBo and Curry. Once ZBo got traded and Curry failed at life, Lee became basically our only pf/c that had some offensive ability. He worked hard over the summer, his jumpers a little more consistent now and he can actually drive to the basket against some centers that are slower then him. His ability to finish with both hands also helped him score more points. How much of this is D'antoni responsible for? Like Nyk_nyk alluded to, Lee wasnt working with D'antoni over the summer. D'antoni's system has helped Lee grow, giving him experience with completing the pick and roll. He's very good at that, and Lee has the greenlight when he gets the ball. But how much of Lee's improvement comes down to D'antoni's coaching...not his ssol offense, but what goes on in practice? I would say some, but not a lot and not a little.
Chandler's fg% did improve from about 43% last year to 48% this year, Ill give D'antoni some credit for that but Chandler is the one that worked hard on his game and at age 22, i would hope he's improving a little bit from one season to the next considering the minutes we give him. The more a players plays, the more comfortable they feel...the better and more confident they get. So to conclude this, maybe D'antoni did have something to do with the improvement of some of our young players...maybe more credit then nyk_nyk is giving, but not as much credit as trillion is giving.
I agree with nyk that its pointless to bring Douglas into this, its too hard to tell with a rookie.
I completely disagree with Jeffries, he just finally stayed healthy and got back to playing the defense he did in Washington. I dont believe that D'antoni in any way, shape or form helped Jeffries become a better defender. And its easy to stand out when your a decent defender on a team that sucks at defense.
So I think Trillion strongest point would be with Chandler (who could and should still be better then he is), and he does have somewhat of a point with Lee as well.
What I see as a bigger problem then his ability to develop players is his decision making and substitutions which has already been brought up by a couple others in this thread. I think that emotions get in the way of his thinking too much and he acts immature sometimes.
Chandler's fg% did improve from about 43% last year to 48% this year, Ill give D'antoni some credit for that but Chandler is the one that worked hard on his game and at age 22, i would hope he's improving a little bit from one season to the next considering the minutes we give him. The more a players plays, the more comfortable they feel...the better and more confident they get. So to conclude this, maybe D'antoni did have something to do with the improvement of some of our young players...maybe more credit then nyk_nyk is giving, but not as much credit as trillion is giving.
I agree with nyk that its pointless to bring Douglas into this, its too hard to tell with a rookie.
I completely disagree with Jeffries, he just finally stayed healthy and got back to playing the defense he did in Washington. I dont believe that D'antoni in any way, shape or form helped Jeffries become a better defender. And its easy to stand out when your a decent defender on a team that sucks at defense.
So I think Trillion strongest point would be with Chandler (who could and should still be better then he is), and he does have somewhat of a point with Lee as well.
What I see as a bigger problem then his ability to develop players is his decision making and substitutions which has already been brought up by a couple others in this thread. I think that emotions get in the way of his thinking too much and he acts immature sometimes.
StEpHoN_mArBuRy
All Star
**** mike dantoni. Man the fact that players who have played under him are coming out admitting he doesn't stress defense should be enough for any Knick fan to disprove of him. Even if we do get the players, we will NEVER win a championship if defense isnt our focal point. Dantoni has to go sooner or later.
Agreed. Mike D'Antoni is trash.
I want Patrick Ewing to be the head coach, with Stephon Marbury and Mark Jackson as the assistants.
smokes
Huge Member
New New York
Quiet Storm
Look arent you tired of our franchise still paying players and coaches long after they are off our bench! I remember reading a joke about coaching The Knicks that went "sign a five year deal to coach the Knicks and get a 3 year paid vacation!"
Hear me out, in the case of Isiah Thomas, he had to be fired! There was simply no reason to think that our team would ever be better with him running the show. Not even the most pesimistic person towards Mike Dantoni can say that about him!
plus I just dont get what firing him now would do! I mean if we wanted an interim coach until 2010 we shouldve just hired Herb Williams after Isiah was fired!
Why fire him for losing when should really have expected him to win much?
The problem is, is that Knick fans had unfair expectaions about how good this team was going to be last year and this year and so when that does not come to pass who else to blame!?
Now I do agree that Mike D was stupid in not knowing we had a fould to give thus costing us a loss at the buzzer to Portland last year, but I can think of numerous games when his coaching has won games for us.
One that comes to mind is him shifting Tim Thomas to Center to play against Shaq, this forced Shaq outside the lane and Nate got to the basket at ease, when Shaq stayed to fill the lane Tim Thomas knocked down 3's. That's intelligent coaching.
Mike D also got more out of Jared Jefferies than any coach did!
These are reasons why I am curious to what he can do with more talent.
Lastly would Jordan Hill be playing as much if Yao was there and/or if Carl Landry wasnt traded?
Hill was benched because of frontcourt depth, blame Donnie for drafting him not Mike for not playing him
Thanks.
smokes
Huge Member
There are things in your post I agree with and things I disagree with. I agree that we shouldn't be paying out money to people who aren't doing us any service. However I was under the impression coaching contracts did not hold the same kind of rules as player contracts and "buying out" a coach doesn't affect any kind of money you can use to refill the need. Correct me if I'm wrong, that's just what I thought. And since that money doesn't really need to be used for anything else then why not?
I said it already, that I don't think we should fire him for the win/loss ratio, if he hadn't made some ridiculous mistakes and questionable decisions during his coaching tenure my opinion would be different. However he has made those mistakes and decisions and thus my opinion has been formed.
Yes his coaching has won us some games, but the errors that have lost us games are rookie mistakes, ones which a former coach of the year should not be making.
Well, JJ was signed to a 10 million deal so I don't think D'antoni necessarily got the best out of him, however since that was an Isaiah move I can't say, I didn't watch JJ at all before he was on the Knicks so I have no idea what his play was like on the Wizards.
Frontcourt depth? Our frontcourt consists of Lee and errrm... Lee! Sure we had JJ, ok that's 2 players in the frontcourt. Harrington is only playing the 4 because we have a logjam at the 3.
So in terms of legit frontcourt players we had two, three if you count Milicic (who also didn't play and also has improved drastically since leaving NY). How is our frontcourt full of depth?
As I said I'm not trying to bitch on your opinion here, and I agree with some things, but overall I prefer to get rid of D'antoni before he makes those mistakes with a potential playoff team.
New New York
Quiet Storm
A rookie has to really be exeptionally good in order to bump veteran players out of the lineup! It's really about paying dues
In Mike Dantoni's offense (or as a result of a logjam) Harrington is a 4 and this is what pushed Hill out of the lineup he had 3 frontcourt players in front of him who all had the ability to produce more than him.
I'll say it again, If Houston still had Landry (lets excuse Yao for now) then Hill would not be given as much time.
Now being that I live in Washington I am forced to watch the Wizards and trust me, what we saw out of Jefferies was as good as he will ever play in The NBA!
I don't exuse Dantoni's mistakes, but every coach makes mistakes that cost their team a couple of games through the course of a season.
The Cavs were trailing Char. with a little over a minute left and they call a timeout to run a play for Mo. Williams or Gibson going at Stephon Jackson when obviously in a close game your #1,2,and 3 option should be Lebron, The Cavs missed, Char. scored on a fast break as a result of the bad play and even The Charlotte commentators talked about The Cavs "catching a break" on that play!
Plus in terms of The Portland situation when Dantoni didnt foul, it is really on your assitance to let you know that you have fouls to give!
OVER RATED
Let's wait and see...okay give him some all stars...what is sad is that Mike D needs all stars in order to have a winning team....look at the rockets...no big time player and a winning season...Mike D is a joke this year
I expected an offesive genius and seriously all I see is a constant gaemplan of Lee at the point forward....then moving into a spread out isolation which they do on every single play.
The isolation then turns into our players jacking up shots....
This is not good shot selection and this is why we lose so many games.
Take into account that MIke D never teaches defense which is why we get blown out so many games....Amare even said that Mike D never taught defense in Phoenix...maybe thats why that amazing Phoenix team never won a Championship?!?!
for 6 million a year Mike D is a bust.....
I know it's not fair that his team is not with two all stars or whatever...but there were atleast 10-15 games that we should have won that were lost on bad coaching....
His substitutions have been a question mark since he came here....he benches rookies until the season is over and played bum veterans like Duhon and Jeffries while hindering the development of our young players.
He never teaches players to play to their strengths until the season is practically over.
How long did it take WIlson Chandler to shoot mid range/close range shots?
How long did it take Gallo to start drawing fouls by driving to the hoop?
ALL SEASON....its as if Mike D doesnt teach anything besides his offensive system=chucking up in isolation........and the players have to learn on their own
Give him Lebron....give him D Wade....you will only see defense and smart offensive schemes if an all star like Steve Nash, Lebron, etc is taking over the games.
Mike D puts so much emphasis on his player's decision making that it costs us games because we have had no leaders on this team since he came here....so we had Duhon and Harrington making the decisions which led to disaster.
If this team does not have a winning record next year...then fire D'Antoni!
Let's wait and see...okay give him some all stars...what is sad is that Mike D needs all stars in order to have a winning team....look at the rockets...no big time player and a winning season...Mike D is a joke this year
I expected an offesive genius and seriously all I see is a constant gaemplan of Lee at the point forward....then moving into a spread out isolation which they do on every single play.
The isolation then turns into our players jacking up shots....
This is not good shot selection and this is why we lose so many games.
Take into account that MIke D never teaches defense which is why we get blown out so many games....Amare even said that Mike D never taught defense in Phoenix...maybe thats why that amazing Phoenix team never won a Championship?!?!
for 6 million a year Mike D is a bust.....
I know it's not fair that his team is not with two all stars or whatever...but there were atleast 10-15 games that we should have won that were lost on bad coaching....
His substitutions have been a question mark since he came here....he benches rookies until the season is over and played bum veterans like Duhon and Jeffries while hindering the development of our young players.
He never teaches players to play to their strengths until the season is practically over.
How long did it take WIlson Chandler to shoot mid range/close range shots?
How long did it take Gallo to start drawing fouls by driving to the hoop?
ALL SEASON....its as if Mike D doesnt teach anything besides his offensive system=chucking up in isolation........and the players have to learn on their own
Give him Lebron....give him D Wade....you will only see defense and smart offensive schemes if an all star like Steve Nash, Lebron, etc is taking over the games.
Mike D puts so much emphasis on his player's decision making that it costs us games because we have had no leaders on this team since he came here....so we had Duhon and Harrington making the decisions which led to disaster.
If this team does not have a winning record next year...then fire D'Antoni!
LJ4ptplay
Starter
Those that wanted Marc Jackson or Ewing as the coach, must not like Jackson and Ewing. They would have had a terrible record (like any coach given the circumstances) and everybody would be calling for them to be fired.
A first year head coach coming into this situation would be career suicide. They would've been ran out of town and never be able to find another coaching job again.
Probably the best scenario would have been to hire a scrub coach (interim lame duck - Herb Williams?) for these two years. Fire him at the end of this year, and then hire a new coach (Avery Johnson?) this offseason. Kind of like what the Nets have done.
A first year head coach coming into this situation would be career suicide. They would've been ran out of town and never be able to find another coaching job again.
Probably the best scenario would have been to hire a scrub coach (interim lame duck - Herb Williams?) for these two years. Fire him at the end of this year, and then hire a new coach (Avery Johnson?) this offseason. Kind of like what the Nets have done.