We Can Still Use the MLE!!

[TR1LL10N]

This started out as a decent "THREAD" to share members opinions on the Knicks salary-cap situation, how much money are the Knicks allowed to spend this offseason ($30M+ with an aditional $13M over the cap equals ???), plus your opinion of the $$$ values of each player in the FA market this offseason.

Sharing your opinion on the individual FA worth:
The $20M players (Max), $15M players, $10M players, and the $6M players (MLE).
Such an easy thread to respond to....but WTF ......

All these "Lebron James" responses added to this thread without (any numbers added to) how much it will actually cost the Knicks organization to pull-off such a courageous "Jesus Christ" miracle on 33rd st.

Those members that are still holding-on to Donnie Walsh "King James" Dream Speech in 2008.
Destroyed the topic of this thread that represented Max-FA, MLE-FA, resigning FA, and trades without a matching salary, inwhich the Knicks organization are in position to obtain this offseason. anything other than those subjects:
:boohoo::boohoo::boohoo:
Am I the only one that recall the "HAVOC" Kobe Bryant put the NBA league in when media printed he wanted to be traded from the Lakers?
Every Owner, President, G.M. and Coach was offering to trade their "Mama" for Kobe Bryant.
Or am I the only one that watched the 2004-5 Cleveland Cavs improve their roster every season since with "on & off" ledgit players to surround around King James?
Or am I the only one that watched the "Missmanagement" and poor a*** coaching from the Knicks organization for the last nine (9) seasons straight to become the NBA top losing "Soap-Opera" in proffessional sports?
Am I supose to believe "Lebron James" is going to leave a strong supporting cast of people that starts with the Owner on down the line to the ball-boy to create two NBA best winning records in a row.....to sign with the Knicks???

Kiya,

Lebron may or may not come to the Knicks but to use a poker analogy...Donnie went all in on a draw. We either hit our card on the river or we don't. He did leave us other outs but Lebron is the nuts. (best possible hand)

We traded away talent, draft picks and wins in order to put us in the position to acquire Lebron or another stud of that caliber. We are a few short months away from a goal started years ago. Again, it may not happen but until it is confirmed that Lebron, Bosh and even Wade are not coming it has to be our priority.

If we had our draft picks I could see the rationale behind going a more "traditional" route but we don't. We need to either continue to suck and retain our protected picks or become a dominant team with a chance to win a title. Just making the playoffs is the worst possible scenario because we then lose our draft picks for nothing and still have a team incapable of winning a title.

Using the MLE and signing second tier talent is a fall back plan and one that should be followed by the firing of Donnie Walsh. If that happens he failed and we should not have gone the route we did. Since we can't change it at this point and since we are so close to the finishline the best course of action is to see it through.

 

[nyk_nyk]

I posted this in another thread but thought I would make another one because it can be a substantial amount of money available to us this offseason.

Ok, so here is how it works. For teams under the cap, the MLE counts as team salary and against the available salary cap. Teams under the cap typically renounce the exceptions (MLE, Bi-Annual) in order to preserve cap space.

If our intention is to sign two max contracts, however, we must renounce the exceptions to preserve the cap space.

But if our intention is to only sign 1 max contract player and fill out the roster we can choose to retain the MLE.

It will count approx as a $5.8 mil cap hold. If we choose to retain Lee's Bird Rights it will count as a $10.5 mil cap hold. This totals $16.3 mil in cap holds. Add in the "phantom" player minimum salary cap holds to fill out the 12 player minimum roster (4 on the books + 3 2nd round draft picks = 7 players on the roster. 5 "phantom" roster cap holds at $488,000 = $2.4 mil).

$16.3 + $2.4 = $18.7 in total cap holds.

We will have $17.8 mil in team salary this July. If the cap comes in at $54 mil, that gives us $36.2 mil in cap space. Subtract the $18.7 in cap holds and we still have $17.5 mil in cap space.

A max contract for $54 mil salary cap is $16.2 mil.


What does all of this mean?

We can sign a max contract player, resign Lee and go over the cap because we retained his Bird Rights and the use the MLE (and go over the cap) to get other players.


Another important fact. If a team is under the cap, they can make trades and don't have to match salaries. That team can take on more salary than it is giving.

So after a max is signed we will still be under the cap. We can then trade with another team and take on a large salary and go over the cap. Then Lee and the MLE can be signed.

This affords us many options to fill out the roster around a max. What would you do?

If we're only signing 1 max then it's got to be Lebron. No knock on Wade or Bosh but they have a pretty decent supporting cast now and are still struggling with their respective teams. I like the idea of being able to go over the cap and using the MLE but if we're only going to sign 1 person and fill-ins then IMO Lebron is the only availabe FA can make it work.

I'm still hoping for two max FA or Lebron and re-sign T-Mac for very little plus retain Lee (or sign and trade him)

 

[Kiyaman]

Kiya,

Lebron may or may not come to the Knicks but to use a poker analogy...Donnie went all in on a draw. We either hit our card on the river or we don't. He did leave us other outs but Lebron is the nuts. (best possible hand)

We traded away talent, draft picks and wins in order to put us in the position to acquire Lebron or another stud of that caliber. We are a few short months away from a goal started years ago. Again, it may not happen but until it is confirmed that Lebron, Bosh and even Wade are not coming it has to be our priority.

If we had our draft picks I could see the rationale behind going a more "traditional" route but we don't. We need to either continue to suck and retain our protected picks or become a dominant team with a chance to win a title. Just making the playoffs is the worst possible scenario because we then lose our draft picks for nothing and still have a team incapable of winning a title.

Using the MLE and signing second tier talent is a fall back plan and one that should be followed by the firing of Donnie Walsh. If that happens he failed and we should not have gone the route we did. Since we can't change it at this point and since we are so close to the finishline the best course of action is to see it through.

Look at our Knick management and compare it to the Cleveland Cavs management?
Which management has been improving the organization success "on & off" the court every season since 2003-4 ???

 

[Kiyaman]

Correction!

plus we are allowed to add $13M over the cap (or rather two max MLE players).

If the Knicks have say 32M in cap space, then that's what they have to spend. They can't go over the cap in terms of signing free agents (except for signing players to minimum contracts after they use their cap space). They won't have the MLE this offseason as they'll have to renounce their exceptions in order to free up their cap space.

 

[TR1LL10N]

Look at our Knick management and compare it to the Cleveland Cavs management?
Which management has been improving the organization success "on & off" the court every season since 2003-4 ???

That missies the point and does not address the topic. Our team has tried unsuccessfully to bring in real talent but they were always hampered by long term cap issues. We have been screwed since we traded Ewing and have been saddled with one overpaid half-way star after another. We keep bringing in players hoping that they were underutilized or not given the correct environment thinking that things will change as a Knick. None of it panned out that way. We kept trying to use the original Ewing contract money to bring in other teams problems thinking things would be different...they weren't.

Marbury
Mcdyess
Randolph
Crawford

All good talents but all lack the ability to really lead a team to the promised land.

What Walsh did was stop that cycle and tare down the team in order to build it from scratch. His plan was to retain cheap young players and develop them just in time for 2010 when we can go out get a true star. He is on pace to do so althought the ride has been bumpy. Chandler and Lee are having career years and Gallo was thriving until his back and legs gave out. We are now in a position to acquire major talent next year with more cap space coming shortly after.

After years of mismanagement and one bad contract after another something fundamental needed to change. Walsh decided to do the unpopular thing and guarantee losing seasons barring an unexpected miracle. He and Dant have taken heat over it but none of it matters if he gets a superstar or two in the orange and blue. The easy and better political decision would have been to keep Randolph and Crawford and fight for a playoff spot. I think that core was fundamentally flawed and would never had netted a title. Walsh recognized that and decided to forgo two seasons in order to bring in real stars that can contend for a title.

I would rather take two losing seasons and a chance at a superstar and dynasty over the 8th seed any day especially considering our recent history. We made the playoffs with Marbury and what did it do for us? We weren't ever going to win a title so what was the point? Because of our salaries there was no way of effectively bringing in real talent to put us over the top once making the playoffs. We could not build upon the success so the success was pointless. Walsh may ultimately fail in bringing Bron or Bosh but the cap space he focused on obtaining allows for flexibility moving forward. We no longer have to take other teams problems hoping to find a diamond in the rough. We can pick and chose who we go after, sign and trade our young players or keep them. Walsh has brought us options and it may lead to something great.

 

[NYKnuniversity]

That missies the point and does not address the topic. Our team has tried unsuccessfully to bring in real talent but they were always hampered by long term cap issues. We have been screwed since we traded Ewing and have been saddled with one overpaid half-way star after another. We keep bringing in players hoping that they were underutilized or not given the correct environment thinking that things will change as a Knick. None of it panned out that way. We kept trying to use the original Ewing contract money to bring in other teams problems thinking things would be different...they weren't.

Marbury
Mcdyess
Randolph
Crawford

All good talents but all lack the ability to really lead a team to the promised land.

What Walsh did was stop that cycle and tare down the team in order to build it from scratch. His plan was to retain cheap young players and develop them just in time for 2010 when we can go out get a true star. He is on pace to do so althought the ride has been bumpy. Chandler and Lee are having career years and Gallo was thriving until his back and legs gave out. We are now in a position to acquire major talent next year with more cap space coming shortly after.

After years of mismanagement and one bad contract after another something fundamental needed to change. Walsh decided to do the unpopular thing and guarantee losing seasons barring an unexpected miracle. He and Dant have taken heat over it but none of it matters if he gets a superstar or two in the orange and blue. The easy and better political decision would have been to keep Randolph and Crawford and fight for a playoff spot. I think that core was fundamentally flawed and would never had netted a title. Walsh recognized that and decided to forgo two seasons in order to bring in real stars that can contend for a title.

I would rather take two losing seasons and a chance at a superstar and dynasty over the 8th seed any day especially considering our recent history. We made the playoffs with Marbury and what did it do for us? We weren't ever going to win a title so what was the point? Because of our salaries there was no way of effectively bringing in real talent to put us over the top once making the playoffs. We could not build upon the success so the success was pointless. Walsh may ultimately fail in bringing Bron or Bosh but the cap space he focused on obtaining allows for flexibility moving forward. We no longer have to take other teams problems hoping to find a diamond in the rough. We can pick and chose who we go after, sign and trade our young players or keep them. Walsh has brought us options and it may lead to something great.

All of the Walsh haters are just focusing on the possibility of failing when in reality having options is something the Knicks lacked for the last decade. By Walsh giving us the ability to make some noise in free agency this year, he accomplished something in itself. We no longer will be FORCED into mediocrity, the only way we will be mediocre is if our young players and free agent signees dont pan out.

 

[TR1LL10N]

All of the Walsh haters are just focusing on the possibility of failing when in reality having options is something the Knicks lacked for the last decade. By Walsh giving us the ability to make some noise in free agency this year, he accomplished something in itself. We no longer will be FORCED into mediocrity, the only way we will be mediocre is if our young players and free agent signees dont pan out.

I agree completely. Having money and options is never a bad thing...only what you do with those options can be bad/good. Since I think we can all agree that a core of Marbury, Randolph and Crawford was not winning any titles all complaints are moot. Walsh saw that, looked at our contracts, when they expire and saw that we could clear most if not all the space in time to be players in the best FA market in years.

Walsh is playing 3d chess while some are stuck on checkers.

 

[pakopako]

<b>It's very simple...We have five (5) players with contracts
through the 2010-11 season:

PG-Douglas
SG-Walker
SF-Chandler
SF-Gallo
C-Curry

We have to add 7 or more players to our roster
before the 2010-11 regular season begin with the
$32M to reach the annual salary-cap

That's still enough for a max-contract and four decent players
What I still don't understand is how that $32M salary cap-space equals two max-contracts.

 

[TR1LL10N]

That's still enough for a max-contract and four decent players
What I still don't understand is how that $32M salary cap-space equals two max-contracts.

Max contract using the projected cap is 16.2 mil.

 

[LJ4ptplay]

Correction!


If the Knicks have say 32M in cap space, then that's what they have to spend. They can't go over the cap in terms of signing free agents (except for signing players to minimum contracts after they use their cap space). They won't have the MLE this offseason as they'll have to renounce their exceptions in order to free up their cap space.

Did you read the thread opening?

We do not have to renounce the exceptions if our intention is to only sign 1 max player. If we do not renounce the exceptions, they count against our cap space. But since we have so much cap space, we can retain the MLE, retain Lee's Bird Rights and still sign 1 max contract player.

This affords us the possiblity of going over the cap to fill out the roster. I think this is something that Donnie should seriously consider.

 

[LJ4ptplay]

If we're only signing 1 max then it's got to be Lebron. No knock on Wade or Bosh but they have a pretty decent supporting cast now and are still struggling with their respective teams. I like the idea of being able to go over the cap and using the MLE but if we're only going to sign 1 person and fill-ins then IMO Lebron is the only availabe FA can make it work.

I'm still hoping for two max FA or Lebron and re-sign T-Mac for very little plus retain Lee (or sign and trade him)

I understand what you're saying. Lebron would instantly change this franchise around.

But I must admit. Over the course of this season, I have grown to resent Lebron a little and sometimes I feel there would be nothing more enjoyable than beating Lebron in the playoffs.

If he doesn't sign here, how great would it be to stick it to him and beat his Cavs in the East Finals?

 

[paris401]

but maybe he goes to chicago or miami... or...

 

[LJ4ptplay]

This is where my understanding differ from his and this is why.

If a team is under the cap they are not bound by the 125% + 100k trading rule.
Therefore if they are let say 8mill under the cap they can trade a 3 mill contract and absorb a larger one as much as their cap permits, in this case 8 mill.
However they can not trade a 3 mill contract and get back a 12 mill contract ( thus going over the cap) since the 125% + 100k will go in effect making the trade not possible.

Thanks for the info Danutz! Always happy to see others contribute and both you and Oldtimer really keep me on my toes.

This info definitely changes how I envisioned the offseason a little but not much.

I looked up the rule. Apparently if we are under the cap we can make any trade as we see fit. We can take on as much salary as we want in return as long as the trade does not take us $100,000 over the cap. Otherwise, the Traded Player exception, or 125% + 100k rule goes into effect.

So basically, I think the best approach is to retain Lee's Bird Rights and retain the MLE. Sign 1 max contract player, sign and trade Lee for the 2nd max contract player and then use the MLE to sign other players.

 

[TR1LL10N]

Thanks for the info Danutz! Always happy to see others contribute and both you and Oldtimer really keep me on my toes.

This info definitely changes how I envisioned the offseason a little but not much.

I looked up the rule. Apparently if we are under the cap we can make any trade as we see fit. We can take on as much salary as we want in return as long as the trade does not take us $100,000 over the cap. Otherwise, the Traded Player exception, or 125% + 100k rule goes into effect.

So basically, I think the best approach is to retain Lee's Bird Rights and retain the MLE. Sign 1 max contract player, sign and trade Lee for the 2nd max contract player and then use the MLE to sign other players.

Why are you so quick to have the Knicks go back over the cap? Lets slow it down a bit, make some moves and reassess at the deadline when Curry becomes trade bait. If we are to go over the cap it better be for really good players or short term deals. The worst thing would be signing mediocre, againg players like STAT and Johnson to long term deals and fuking our flexibility again for another 6 years.

 

[StreetDreams21]

Why are you so quick to have the Knicks go back over the cap? Lets slow it down a bit, make some moves and reassess at the deadline when Curry becomes trade bait. If we are to go over the cap it better be for really good players or short term deals. The worst thing would be signing mediocre, againg players like STAT and Johnson to long term deals and fuking our flexibility again for another 6 years.

Curry is going to be very valuable next year. If we're winning and we're over the cap i'm for it.


I've said before, the best deal i see at this point is Curry for Okafor. New Orleans is looking to shave off capspace, and we acquire a bigman that blocks shots, something we so desperately need.

 

[pakopako]

Max contract using the projected cap is 16.2 mil.

But if two max-contracts take out the entire $32M cap, how will the team afford additional players? I haven't seen Okafur lately. How's his IQ on defense?

 

[paris401]

But if two max-contracts take out the entire $32M cap, how will the team afford additional players? I haven't seen Okafur lately. How's his IQ on defense?

playing for "NO-D"antoni, u don't need an IQ for "D"...

 

[TR1LL10N]

But if two max-contracts take out the entire $32M cap, how will the team afford additional players? I haven't seen Okafur lately. How's his IQ on defense?

I believe the remaining money being talked about includes cap holds on unsigned phantom players. Meaning we need 12 spots but if we only have 6 signed players the other six are assigned a value. As we sign other players the cap hold will be released.

Don't get me wrong it's tight if not impossible to get two max players currently. If we could sign two players for just under the max and then fiil the rest with scrubs we should be able to do decent until the trade deadline when we can package Curry's expiring contract for another player or two.

 

[paris401]

i saw eddy on the tv practicing... you can hardly reconize him, he is so thin... he is probably down near to dwight howards weight... now if he only had 5% of the body of howard, we would be in business...

 

[DANUTZ39]

Why are you so quick to have the Knicks go back over the cap? Lets slow it down a bit, make some moves and reassess at the deadline when Curry becomes trade bait. If we are to go over the cap it better be for really good players or short term deals. The worst thing would be signing mediocre, againg players like STAT and Johnson to long term deals and fuking our flexibility again for another 6 years.

LJ is not quick to see our team go over the cap Trill. That is the reality when you build thru free agency instead of drafts and young players on cheap contracts.

The reality is we are going to go over the cap; but the question is how much?

If is by let say 1mill then we go under the cap (10mill) again when Curry expires(2011) and if we are over by more then 7-8 mill then we can trade his expiring contract plus someone else next year for a CP3 type a player.