I don't like Billiups!

[nyk_nyk]

The anti-dant rants are pathological at this point! Can't we have ONE thread that stays on topic and does not become a venue for emotional outbursts about our coach!?

No because it all points back to coaching. Whatever you have an issue with will always go back to MDA. You don't like Billups because he's not playing that well right now but there is a way to correct that (coaching-wise). When Felton was stinking it up, did you dislike him too? Billups played a different way in DEN -- this is NY and here we take quick open shots. Right?

All i'm saying is, majority of the time any issue will point back to the coach. The same way if the team is doing well you give props to MDA it has to go the other way when things are falling apart. We all know Billups is a professional and damn good basketball player, so all it takes is some good coaching and communication by MDA to make things better.

Also, it would help if they practiced a little more.

 

[TR1LL10N]

No because it all points back to coaching. Whatever you have an issue with will always go back to MDA. You don't like Billups because he's not playing that well right now but there is a way to correct that (coaching-wise). When Felton was stinking it up, did you dislike him too? Billups played a different way in DEN -- this is NY and here we take quick open shots. Right?

All i'm saying is, majority of the time any issue will point back to the coach. The same way if the team is doing well you give props to MDA it has to go the other way when things are falling apart. We all know Billups is a professional and damn good basketball player, so all it takes is some good coaching and communication by MDA to make things better.

Also, it would help if they practiced a little more.

Wrong. Billups has been a historical 6 APG PG so those stats are underwhelming regardless of coach. Further changing coaches will not make Billiups younger or quicker. We get it, you don't like D'ant. I don't like D'ant for this roster either but this thread is about Billiups! Under our CURRENT COACH both Nash and Felton thrived so blaming Billups lackluster play on D'ant is easily dismissed. Billups is not the right PG for this roster AND our coach. Did I mention he is 35!?

 

[TR1LL10N]

I think we need to play as a team, as if we have no real point guard. Theres other players that can make plays besides billups like Carmello (Great job last night) and Amare barf: @ last night)

If u look at the Celtics, its almost like they have a bunch of role players. They're not concerned with who the stars gonna be on a given night, just try to get the best shot on every possession. Thats how the Knicks need to play. Billups can get his 3 or 4 assists, not really a big deal that hes not gettin 8 as long as Melo can add in 3 or 4, Stat can add 2 or 3 and same with Fields. Then we got Douglas off the bench that can add a few more. Teamball....if the Knicks played as a team they would be just a step below the elites (Bos, Chi, Mia, Orl). Instead we're struggling to hold down 7th place, after already losing 6th

The problem is we lack real role players. We have two mega stars who can score and in the case of Melo rebound. Other than that our team is devoid of real role players that can COMPLIMENT our stars. This will obviously be addressed moving forward with trades and free agency.

 

[nyk_nyk]

Wrong. Billups has been a historical 6 APG PG so those stats are underwhelming regardless of coach. Further changing coaches will not make Billiups younger or quicker. We get it, you don't like D'ant. I don't like D'ant for this roster either but this thread is about Billiups! Under our CURRENT COACH both Nash and Felton thrived so blaming Billups lackluster play on D'ant is easily dismissed. Billups is not the right PG for this roster AND our coach. Did I mention he is 35!?

So Billups, Finals MVP and one of the top PGs in the league for years isn't the right PG for this roster and coach??? Billups played great in DET and DEN but he doesn't fit with this team??? No, I think the team is just fine...It's the guy that's controlling the whole thing that's the problem. By the way, Felton thrived for about 2 months and then became average after starting out really mediocre.
　
How is Billups not the right PG for Amare, Melo and the rest but he works just fine with players from DET and DEN?? You sound silly man. So what hes 35. He's still better than Felton right now. Maybe not as fast but definitely a smarter and more refined basketball player.
　
Oh and you got it twisted...Dantoni thrived under Nash.

 

[TR1LL10N]

So Billups, Finals MVP and one of the top PGs in the league for years isn't the right PG for this roster and coach??? Billups played great in DET and DEN but he doesn't fit with this team??? No, I think the team is just fine...It's the guy that's controlling the whole thing that's the problem. By the way, Felton thrived for about 2 months and then became average after starting out really mediocre.
　
How is Billups not the right PG for Amare, Melo and the rest but he works just fine with players from DET and DEN?? You sound silly man. So what hes 35. He's still better than Felton right now. Maybe not as fast but definitely a smarter and more refined basketball player.
　
Oh and you got it twisted...Dantoni thrived under Nash.

Billups is 35...Shaq is one of the greatest players ever but his AGE precludes him from playing like he did in his PRIME. Do you not get this simple concept? Further, Billups is not the right PG for Amare as Amare thrives while finsihing or in in the PnR. Felton and Nash managed to get Amare the ball in the right position with the SAME COACH. Asking how he does not thrive with player X but thrives with player Y betrays an obvious lack of knowledge with regards to basketball. Players have styles and compliment other players differently. Why must you ask borderline rhetorical questions that you should already know the answer to? Oh I know! In your attempt to pin the blame solely on the coach while excusing the play of the actual player you find yourself taking idiotic positions that ignore fundamental concepts...

My bad on being harsh but as you like to say...REAL TALK.

 

[KingCharles34]

The problem is we lack real role players. We have two mega stars who can score and in the case of Melo rebound. Other than that our team is devoid of real role players that can COMPLIMENT our stars. This will obviously be addressed moving forward with trades and free agency.

Yea we dont know what we're gonna get on a given night from shawne williams, Fields, and Douglas. Jeffries does nothing on offense, Turiaf sometimes will look like hes capable of being a starting center but this doesnt happen often.

Unfortunately it wont be an easy problem to address because of the cap after this year but other teams will have the same problem as well (Miami)

 

[Red]

A

There I said it! Crucify me if you wish but I simply don't like his game at 35 years of age. He does not facilitate the offense competently, pulls up for too many bad shots and seems to be turning the ball over at an alarming rate. This guy is a champion and future Hall of Famer but to me it looks like one of two things:

1. He has lost his game at the age of 35.
2. His heart is not in it for NYC and he is already looking for the nearest exit back to his hometown for a front office job.

Either way, our offense looks stagnant and Amare has been less effective due to the lack of orchestration coming from the PG position. People thought STAT needed Nash and Felton proved otherwise but STAT does need a pass first PG who is going to allow Amare to finish or give him the ball in his sweet spots.

Billiups will hopefully turn it on in the playoffs and may even win a game or two for us in the post season but as of now Billiups has been a big disappointment and the biggest reason we are struggling.

Huh? Wow, I'm smh...

Are you aware Billups avg 23 and 6 his first games here before injury? Can't ask for more than that.

And putting the offensive issues on a future hof'r? He looked poised and fine before he was acclimated to this flawed system.

No observence of coach inadvertently encouraging poor shot selection as part of his strategy? Even though EVERY PLAYER has demonstrated this tendency under coach? Wow?

I get your standpoint...

What I can't grasp is how is Billups issues a priority over Mike D'Antoni and his shot quick if your open, attack from the outside in, anti-conventional outlook?

Either you need someone other than coach to blame or you rally miss Felton. I'll ask you like I asked others...

What would Phil Jackson do?

Do ya tink he would sit by idely while his team shoots themselves out of games?

And that is actually part of MDA's plan! :whack:

 

[TR1LL10N]

A

Huh? Wow, I'm smh...

Are you aware Billups avg 23 and 6 his first games here before injury? Can't ask for more than that.

And putting the offensive issues on a future hof'r? He looked poised and fine before he was acclimated to this flawed system.

No observence of coach inadvertently encouraging poor shot selection as part of his strategy? Even though EVERY PLAYER has demonstrated this tendency under coach? Wow?

I get your standpoint...

What I can't grasp is how is Billups issues a priority over Mike D'Antoni and his shot quick if your open, attack from the outside in, anti-conventional outlook?

Either you need someone other than coach to blame or you rally miss Felton. I'll ask you like I asked others...

What would Phil Jackson do?

Do ya tink he would sit by idely while his team shoots themselves out of games?

And that is actually part of MDA's plan! :whack:

6 assists? Thats Duhon numbers dude. We don't need 23 points out of a PG when we have Stat And Melo. We need 8+ assists, low turnovers, good defense out of a PG and yes good shot selection. You blame the coach for Billups shot selection? A 35 year old vet who even if the coach didn't "get on him" about it should know better. BTW, he was averaging 23 and 6 prior to the injury..what in 2 games? He also had 9 turnovers in one game! Come on man.

You know I am down for another coach so it's not about blaming anyone but D'ant. Yes, I do miss Felton because of what Felton brought to the table. Again, Billups is either mentally checked out or lost his game due to age...either way he is not doing what needs to be done to get Amare involved effectively or orchestrate this offence down the stretch.

 

[TR1LL10N]

BTW, I don't dislike Billups as a person or what he has done in his career. If he can adapt and thrive I will be happy and embrace him. I am solely judging him on his production so far and how his style does not naturally compliment Amare.

 

[Red]

6 assists? Thats Duhon numbers dude. We don't need 23 points out of a PG when we have Stat And Melo. We need 8+ assists, low turnovers, good defense out of a PG and yes good shot selection. You blame the coach for Billups shot selection? A 35 year old vet who even if the coach didn't "get on him" about it should know better. BTW, he was averaging 23 and 6 prior to the injury..what in 2 games? He also had 9 turnovers in one game! Come on man.

You know I am down for another coach so it's not about blaming anyone but D'ant. Yes, I do miss Felton because of what Felton brought to the table. Again, Billups is either mentally checked out or lost his game due to age...either way he is not doing what needs to be done to get Amare involved effectively or orchestrate this offence down the stretch.

Hey, regardless if it was 2 or more games (which it was more), he didn't decline until he started running the "system". Let's call a spade a spade.

All roads lead back to the same thing.

change the coach, and you'll change your feelings on Billups and the team.

But the pedigree is there.

And maybe not so much so, but the same can be said for:

Anthony Randolph
Mason
Etc
Etc....

Its the coach and system, you know it. Just look back at your comments when we discussed him.

 

[TR1LL10N]

Hey, regardless if it was 2 or more games (which it was more), he didn't decline until he started running the "system". Let's call a spade a spade.

All roads lead back to the same thing.

change the coach, and you'll change your feelings on Billups and the team.

But the pedigree is there.

And maybe not so much so, but the same can be said for:

Anthony Randolph
Mason
Etc
Etc....

Its the coach and system, you know it. Just look back at your comments when we discussed him.

Coach is a separate issue. Do you think Billups style compliments Amare? I say it doesn't and think all things being the same except a swap of Felton and Billups and this team would be killing it right now. Obvious speculation just as changing coaches leading to more fluidity is a speculation.

BTW, you think 6 assists per game is a good stat considering the offensive talent our team possess?

 

[milchshake]

a swap of Felton and Billups

and Chandler, we can see lack of Wilson, lack of his ppg. BTW let's get back Stephon on PG, he is better than Billups and Felton together :teeth: I know I know I'm such joker...

 

[iJoe]

It doesn't really matter whether you love or hate Billups. The truth is that he's a rental. He's too old to be part of our long term future. Everyone can agree that his best days are behind him.

 

[nyk_nyk]

Billups is 35...Shaq is one of the greatest players ever but his AGE precludes him from playing like he did in his PRIME. Do you not get this simple concept? Further, Billups is not the right PG for Amare as Amare thrives while finsihing or in in the PnR. Felton and Nash managed to get Amare the ball in the right position with the SAME COACH. Asking how he does not thrive with player X but thrives with player Y betrays an obvious lack of knowledge with regards to basketball. Players have styles and compliment other players differently. Why must you ask borderline rhetorical questions that you should already know the answer to? Oh I know! In your attempt to pin the blame solely on the coach while excusing the play of the actual player you find yourself taking idiotic positions that ignore fundamental concepts...

My bad on being harsh but as you like to say...REAL TALK.

lol your funny man! So only 8 games by Billups and you feel he's not the right PG for Amare. We've had over a whole season to know that Dantoni isn't the right coach for this team.

Another reason why your a comedian: When Gallo was here you gave him all types of passes (injury, age, acclimation to the league) whenever he struggled. SO why on earth are you so quick to throw a guy under the bus who has been a champion and has made teams better at the PG position?? Yes CB is 35 but he's not at the decline of a Shaq so that was a dumb comparision to begin with. CB can obviously still play at a high level.

All that BS you talking is nonsense. BOTTOM LINE IS THAT CHAUNCEY IS A PRO AND WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE THAT HE CAN'T PLAY WITH AMARE? Maybe different offensive schemes need to be implemented. Maybe Amare needs to move without the ball better. Maybe Amare prefers to be a jumpshooter at this point. My dude, your marginalizing CB to some weak PG that hasn't made a name for himself in this league. Just because you feel a player doesn't fit with 1 guy doesn't mean he's not right for the TEAM. Cmon son!!! Wake up!

I get it! You are the fanboy persident for Dantoni. Just remember you are part of a minority on here when it comes to that.

And don't try to insult my basketball knowledge because you questioning of CB already provided you an L.

 

[Red]

Coach is a separate issue. Do you think Billups style compliments Amare? I say it doesn't and think all things being the same except a swap of Felton and Billups and this team would be killing it right now. Obvious speculation just as changing coaches leading to more fluidity is a speculation.

BTW, you think 6 assists per game is a good stat considering the offensive talent our team possess?

Umm.. 6apg is fine IF it helps us win. I can't put an indicator on a certain stat for any individual and then gauge the team by it. The most important stat is the "w" & "l". Win ugly or going away, just win baby!

As far as the "style" I would say:

1st, we've mostly observed Amare under D'ant except Gentry and that was a semi-byproduct of D'ant.

2, talented players such as Amare really should shine with or without coaching, just based on natural ability and work ethic. I feel the coach earns his pay not with the Amares and Billups's of the world, but the Landry Fields types who have skills but no direction.

And on Billups, I really don't see him hindering anything. Sure he's not the fastest, but his IQ, handle, ability to draw fouls, passing, and shot are def. servicable.

The "fit" with Amare is relative to the system. If you want to speculate

I would say... i'd bet this team (specifically the starters) could ad-lib a game (run no reference to the system), just play ball as if it were a pick up game, and compete better.

I see these players having no input, trying to adapt to coach, and limiting themselves as a result.

Oh, and I been said Douglas needs polishing particularly with his taking the rock inside, waaaaay back, and its still apparent.

Did you notice this? I'm telling you, get a better coach, and our discussions will change dramatically.

Its a dead horse, I know this is about Billups, but...

I can't worry about a girls hair when her breath stinks. One thing suprcedes the other.

 

[ronoranina]

I saw some signs from Billups last night. I thought he had a better feel for the pace our offense needs. I also think his pull-up 3 taking, while gratuitous @ the moment, will ultimately benefit him and the team. Nash used to luv those quick pull-up 3s in transition. Billups shoots a high percentage so I don't worry as much a out those types of shots from him. I think they help us to establish our point guard as threat. His periodic drives to the hoop also serve to do this.

Billups turnovers are a product of not having a feel for the offense and playing w a host of new players. That's all. I think he can average 8 assists in this offense. I also don't think he's lost anything due to age. If he's lost anything, it's only like a half a step, maybe IMO. I thought he did a real good job on Nelson last night as proof of this. He still seems to have the just about same level of quickness he's had throughout his career.

Billups is still a venerable PG w alot of bball left in him. Ultimately, I think he'll come around.

 

[iSaYughh]

I can't worry about a girls hair when her breath stinks. One thing suprcedes the other.

That's actually very funny, but

You say Billups was doing so well *before* getting mucked by the "system"...

Well,

*he was doing well when we were running the traditional MDA way...along w the rest of the team...as evinced by Amare himself, who saw the disconnects between what *was* WORKING (MDA's signature coaching/system)...and the transitionary way of playing, of MDA working to comfort things for Melo (and really, Billups)

*the very facts of the above point are the *the* point in why we look so dysfunctional and fall apart at seams at times, and lack cohesion

The irony, is we are this way -- aside from the obvious evolution of a newly upheaved roster -- bc MDA *has* been working against his wheelhouse, in an effort of openness and change, to see what else can be done with the lineup.

Either way, not pretty and there was a reason DEN pounced on giving us Billups...while most of the forum ejacking everywhere without control in getting him.

Finally, this trade wasn't about this yr, and that's not a MDA thing. A bitter pill, yes, but it is what it is.

You're a damn fool if u honestly think this trade was expected to he a boon and galvanize a deep playoff run. The opposite, if anything...bar the collary of a punchers chance when you have the best player on court in a game.

So that we now look worse than before....should only he a surprise and outrage and direct reflection on our players AND coach if you're some combo of:

Ignorant
Overly greedy and hungry to make a run this yr
Pining for anything to go wrong to help re-inforce the pre-season contention -- that was getting shredded mind you -- about how bad MDA is and that he must go

You can sub MDA for any player who had a long standing target on them too..Trade Melo, eg.

 

[TR1LL10N]

lol your funny man! So only 8 games by Billups and you feel he's not the right PG for Amare.

No, its his whole career I am judging him over based on his style of play and that of Amare. Further I am questioning his ability at age 35 and the much talked about fact that he really wants to retire in Denver and work for their front office.

We've had over a whole season to know that Dantoni isn't the right coach for this team.

You are pathological and must suffer from turrets where your tick is to scream out D'antonis name over and over. THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT D'antoni.

Another reason why your a comedian: When Gallo was here you gave him all types of passes (injury, age, acclimation to the league) whenever he struggled. SO why on earth are you so quick to throw a guy under the bus who has been a champion and has made teams better at the PG position??

Whats comedic is your textbook deflection and attack of the messenger instead the message. Are we discussing me or Billiups? You sadly are using what educated people who know how to debate call a logical fallacy. An obvious Tu quoque. I am sure you have no idea what that means and why you are guilty of it so allow me to educate you:

Tu quoque (pronounced /tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/ [1]), or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a kind of logical fallacy. It is a Latin term for "you, too" or "you, also". A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone's viewpoint on an issue on the argument that the person is inconsistent in that very thing.[2] It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.[3]

I will say that while completely irrelevant and off topic your attack on me for defending Gallo is just silly and an obvious diversion. Anything I said was factual and I did not shed a tear when he was traded. He factually was injured for most of his rookie season. He factually was a 21 year old European player who needed time to acclimate.

Again, I am not so quick to judge as I am looking at his style of play over the years, assessing that style verse our roster, assessing his attitude and known desire to retire in Denver combined with his age and have concluded that I don't like what he brings to the table. I did even go so far as to say more than once that he may win us some games and IF he adapts I will be glad to embrace him. Reading is not your strong suit huh?

Yes CB is 35 but he's not at the decline of a Shaq so that was a dumb comparision to begin with. CB can obviously still play at a high level.

So you are saying that Billiups is still playing at the level he did a few years ago with Detroit? I mean you were the one who brought that up as if he can bring that to Knicks. I simply pointed out that while he once was a great player he is currently not at that level and used Shaq as an example. Damn dude, why do I have to hold your hand through all these points. I feel like I'm making train noises telling you to open the tunnel while spoon feeding you points like a baby...

All that BS you talking is nonsense. BOTTOM LINE IS THAT CHAUNCEY IS A PRO AND WHO ARE YOU TO DECIDE THAT HE CAN'T PLAY WITH AMARE?

Talk about nonsense...Billups is a pro and who I am to decide!? LOL. I have not decided anything, I gave my OPINION silly guy! I could easily say that D'antoni is a professional head coach and who are you to say he can't coach effectively!? Luckily for me I am more intelligent than that and wouldn't attempt such idiotic tactics.

Maybe different offensive schemes need to be implemented. Maybe Amare needs to move without the ball better. Maybe Amare prefers to be a jumpshooter at this point.

I'm all for that and I am even for bringing in a new coach but that does not change my opinion that Billups:

1. His style does not mesh well with Amare.
2. He looks to have a lost a step.
3. He does not look to have his heart here in NYC.

BTW, our coach had nothing to do with his 9 turnovers and a 35 year old vet does not need to be coached not to take poor shots. Even if D'ant told him to do so, his veteran experience and leadership should of outweighed a system everyone says he does not agree with.

I also find it funny that for the sake of arguing you now morph your position that it is not Billups a 35 year old rental that must adapt but rather our franchise player must adapt! :thumbsup:

My dude, your marginalizing CB to some weak PG that hasn't made a name for himself in this league. Just because you feel a player doesn't fit with 1 guy doesn't mean he's not right for the TEAM. Cmon son!!! Wake up!

I am not marginalizing him to some "weak PG that hasn't made a name for himself" I am critiquing what I see from a 35 year old vet with historical tendencies and the assists per game of Chris Duhon. Oh and it's not ONE player, it our FRANCHISE player who needs to be effective for us to win. If Amare could rebound, pass and defend it might not be so crucial but we rely on Amare for one thing...to score! If that one thing is infective then YES the PG is not right for our TEAM. More hand holding...SMH

I get it! You are the fanboy persident for Dantoni. Just remember you are part of a minority on here when it comes to that.

Ahh yes the tell tale signs of a poster losing the debate. (hint, that poster is you) I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT D'ANTONI, this is not a defense of D'antoni! This is a critique about our PG. You and the pathologiacl rabid anti-dant chorus are the only ones bringing him up in this thread. So divert and deflect with an attack on me as the "fanboi president" while ignoring that I have said many times that ANOTHER COACH WILL BE MORE EFFECTIVE. It's a clear sign that you lost the debate and your inability to not mention our coach is telling of your narrow minded singular thinking. SMH

And don't try to insult my basketball knowledge because you questioning of CB already provided you an L

I didn't have to TRY anything. I merely pointed out your silly points and rhetorical questions and it just became evident...

 

[iSaYughh]

I saw some signs from Billups last night. I thought he had a better feel for the pace our offense needs. I also think his pull-up 3 taking, while gratuitous @ the moment, will ultimately benefit him and the team. Nash used to luv those quick pull-up 3s in transition. Billups shoots a high percentage so I don't worry as much a out those types of shots from him. I think they help us to establish our point guard as threat. His periodic drives to the hoop also serve to do this.

Billups turnovers are a product of not having a feel for the offense and playing w a host of new players. That's all. I think he can average 8 assists in this offense. I also don't think he's lost anything due to age. If he's lost anything, it's only like a half a step, maybe IMO. I thought he did a real good job on Nelson last night as proof of this. He still seems to have the just about same level of quickness he's had throughout his career.

Billups is still a venerable PG w alot of bball left in him. Ultimately, I think he'll come around.

Co-sign. The question is how soon he comes around, as it always has been.

His pullup 3s *are* reminiscent of Nash, and with his career savvy and expertise with that range shot...will he a huge weapon.

Remember how bad Felton looked the first dozen games? And that was without any injury bullshit like Billups had, and with more time with the same players and practice.

This is so simple...keep tinkering w things, settle on the best mode of play come playoff time, hope for the best.

Draft wisely, drop Billups or resign pre-CBA to a favorable deal, sign one starting NBA C, use Bird Rights on Williams.

Then it's simply a game of Walsh making shrewd moves to bolster the bench, and playing the cap game and figuring out a way to reinforce the 1 or a quality backup 4.

All of this can/should be in place by the start of the season.

 

[iSaYughh]

Coach is a separate issue. Do you think Billups style compliments Amare? I say it doesn't and think all things being the same except a swap of Felton and Billups and this team would be killing it right now. Obvious speculation just as changing coaches leading to more fluidity is a speculation.

BTW, you think 6 assists per game is a good stat considering the offensive talent our team possess?

Agreed...this isn't some massive either/or debate either, or one that's some damning reflection on our coach (lol...).

But I agree...,and it's more reason I drop him if he doesn't accept a very favorable new 2yr deal.

But he *can* be more than fine for us in making some playoff noise, further establishing our franchise, and giving our core more time together before next yr, and playoff experience.