Starters vs Bench

[Kiyaman]

Starters
PG-Marbury
SG-Crawford
SF-Q.Rich
PF-Zack
C-Curry

Bench
PG-Nate
SG-Collins
SF-Balkman
PF-Lee
C-Morris

The Knicks Bench-Unit plays a much better overall game together than the Knicks Starters.

The Knicks Bench-Players dont have half the NBA experience as the Knicks Starters however, The Knicks Bench-Players together as a Unit dont need any of the Knicks Starters as a 6th or 7th man to prevail on any Knick oposition Team.
The Bench Players build a "JELLIN-Chemistry" with one another starting with Nate, Lee, and Frye in their Rookie season. Renaldo Balkman & Mardy Collins joined into that "JELLIN-Chemistry" last year, and now we are seeing how affective Randolph Morris, Chandler, and Nichols are fiiting their skillz each game with the switching positions (while on court) Balkman & Nate.
All three Rookie are conforming well into this style of play (switching-positions).

 

[Kiyaman]

I agree 100% that the Knicks second unit bench Players of just David Lee, Balkman, and Nate Robinson "JELLIN-Chemistry" with each other is much better than the Knicks Starters.
Randolph Morris performance is PROOF of that, while just playing with Balkman & Nate. As soon as Morris get the ball he is quick to pass to a cutting teammate or throw it back out on the weakside of the court. And this is something that Nate & Balkman LUV about Randolph Morris skillz and talent, because they are always feeding him and never gets upset when he miss the shot or make a mistake. Randolph Morris Defense in the Summer League games is superb against everyone of his oponents. The Knicks Starters Curry & Zack are to selfish to be as WISE as Rookie Morris Team-Play.

Nate Robinson shows time and time again that he is capable of playing the Marbury-mode, the Starbury-mode, and the Crawford-mode at anytime he wants on the court but with a "TEAM-Concept" when David Lee & Balkman are on the court with him (In the past you always seen Frye, Lee, and Nate work the ball for easy baskets on every offensive possesion).

Now you have the Tazmanian Devil playing 3 positions, David Lee playing 3 positions, Nate Robinson playing 2 positions, and Randolph Morris that Bigman that will be in the middle of everything in the Paint from defensive presense, rebounds, picks, to put backs, to taking the 10 foot jumper, plus passing the ball with confidence in every pass. With a healthy defensive presence from 6.6 PG/SG-Mardy Collins with the above young players "JELLIN-CHEMISTRY" switching positions on Knick Opositions on different plays to confuse their oponents for a straight 12 minutes of the second quarter. Their Is No-Way that Curry, Zack, Q.Rich, Crawford, and Marbury could touch or compare its B-Ball Team-Talents to the Knicks second unit "JELLIN" bench (That Bench Create to well together on Knicks oposition teams).

The Knicks second Unit Bench reminds me to much of the Nets team that went to the Eastern Conference Finals three seasons in a row with Kidd, Kittles, second season K-Mart, and Rookies R.J., and Collins (only scoring-player were Kerry Kittles in that lineup)...

 

[Toons]

lets not get over uor heads now, this is only the summer league....when morris, plays againts guyl like duncan, yao, shaq, amare, howard, okafor, garnett, bosh, brand, and a few more of the seasoned all star caliber centers and power fowards, then we can really assess his talents.....he's good so far, but our starter will murder our bench

 

[TR1LL10N]

lets not get over uor heads now, this is only the summer league....when morris, plays againts guyl like duncan, yao, shaq, amare, howard, okafor, garnett, bosh, brand, and a few more of the seasoned all star caliber centers and power fowards, then we can really assess his talents.....he's good so far, but our starter will murder our bench

Finally some sanity...

As to the underlying premise of the the thread...I believe are depth of players has always been the Knicks problem. We need a bonified 1-2 punch of two Superstar/Allstar Caliber players and the rest of the team solid rollplayers that compliment our main focus. Going back to the late 90's when Ewing was in decline we had great depth but no MJ, Malone or Oneal caliber player but were stacked with underacheiveing halfway superstars. Our bench always had players that we felt could be starters on our team but certainly on other franchises. We never won a title and we are in the same situation now.

We need to trim the fat and get Kobe period...

 

[Kiyaman]

lets not get over uor heads now, this is only the summer league....when morris, plays againts guyl like duncan, yao, shaq, amare, howard, okafor, garnett, bosh, brand, and a few more of the seasoned all star caliber centers and power fowards, then we can really assess his talents.....he's good so far, but our starter will murder our bench

Wazup Toons, your point is well taken with a long list of memory, those same players you mention above been taking big advantage of our Starters (Curry & Zack) for years in the NBA. That is why our Starters (Curry & Zack) Stat-Sheet for the last 3-seasons says "NO DEFENSE".

Randolph Morris performance showed how well he could hang alongside of Balkman to get any put back Balkman missed, Nate missed, and Chandler missed. His presence of challenging Bigmen without fear for a rebound is what David Lee & Balkman need alongside of them to get that lose ball, rebound, or score on an easy basket in the regular season games.

Remember the reason why David Lee performance is so great at times is because he work so well with his teammates (Chemistry).
Well, Balkman has been doing the samething to make his talents improve to the next level.
When you put those two players together with their "Homeboy" Nate Robinson, all you need is a Defensive-Rebounder that will make sure he or his teammates will get that defensive-rebound giving the Knicks oposition just one shot at the basket (Rookie 6.10 Randolph Morris assignment).
You would have 4 non-stop running players that will think of many ways of scoring while in a running transition game on bothsides of the court. Because they PLAY TEAM-BALL Together.
That can not be said about Marbury, Zack, and Curry, last three seasons in the NBA.

For the last two seasons the Knicks Coaches has been holding the young-players back by not letting them establish a running-game-system against NBA teams. Forcing the young Knick Players to play 90% of their offensive possesions in a Halfcourt-offense game (and getting killed at it).
Because the FUN of the game was taken away from them by not letting them use their best skillz and talents in a running offense.

Nate and Frye looked terrible last season because they were not allowed to try and out run their oponents on both sides of the court. Marbury, Francis, Crawford, and Curry are all "ONE on ONE" players in a halfcourt set, so they were not running.

 

[Isiah's Advocate 33]

Finally some sanity...

As to the underlying premise of the the thread...I believe are depth of players has always been the Knicks problem. We need a bonified 1-2 punch of two Superstar/Allstar Caliber players and the rest of the team solid rollplayers that compliment our main focus. Going back to the late 90's when Ewing was in decline we had great depth but no MJ, Malone or Oneal caliber player but were stacked with underacheiveing halfway superstars. Our bench always had players that we felt could be starters on our team but certainly on other franchises. We never won a title and we are in the same situation now.

We need to trim the fat and get Kobe period...

Sanity? I think it is more realistic to think that Morris's summer league play is indicative of how he'll perform in the regular season is more likely than us landing Kobe! Neither is all that likely, but if one or the other was going to happen next season the smart money is not on Kobe landing in the Big Apple.

But yes we do have a talanted bench, in fact I think it is a championship quality bench, we have role players, hustle players, defenders, and players who can come in and change the course of the game. The problem is our starting 5 is a bit shaky to me. I mean individually I like each player, but as a unit we are extremley off balanced in my opinion. We are an obvious half court team with Zach and Eddy, and assuming they get the type of touches required for them to be affective then, Steph and Jamal are going to have to become role players in the starting line up, and I don't think they bring the type of intangiables needed to be role players. I'm not saying that Mardy is a better player or even point than Steph, but he's better suited for the lineup than Steph. He doesn't have to score to be affective, he'll play lock down D, he's taller making it easier to make entry passes, he can hit the boards, plus he can be used as a post player as well. If Mardy develops a jumper, and can start knocking down his free throws at around 78% than he should be our starting point. I think Q should be the starting SG for this type of lineup, again a player who brings other qualites to the game other than scoring, he can also D and hit the boards, and post up and ofcourse knock down the 3. So who is our SF ? A question I haven't figured out yet, I mean again it's only summer league, but if Chandler could ever play like he did in the Summer League against real competttion, then I would say he's the perfect fit, again a rebounder, defender, low post threat, and most importantly a team player. But again that's only if ( big big if) he can turn into what we saw this summer.

But ofcourse Isiah has a lot of loyalty to Steph and Jamal for being two of his first major acqusitions. I can maybe see Jamal being traded, but would he really trade Steph, or if Steph is not producing in the offense like is being expected, would he start another player over him? Would Isiah let him walk after next season? Isiah once said that he's commited only to winning when asked if he would trade Steph to appease Larry Brown, now the question is if Steph doesn't make this team better then would he let him go ? Please don't get it confused Steph and Jamal are two of my favorite players in the league....but we do have the players on this roster who can make this Eddy and Zach project work effetively

Projected Lineup

Mardy
Q
Chandler ( possibly)
Zach
Eddy

bench
Nate
Fred Jones ( defense w/ some scoring)
Balkman
Lee
Nichols
Dan Dik or equiv. ( we need a true backup point)

Now that would also require Nichols to play like he did in the summer, which may or may not be all that likely, but ( and a huge but that is) if he and Chandler develope, and this is our lineup, then we are talking a solid all around team, our weak interior is disguised by our great on the ball defenders, we're easily the best rebounding team in the league, Nichols Q Nichols and Nate can drain the 3 and Lee and Balk provide the energy. One major risk is can other than relying on the rookies is can Q be relied on as a full-time starter with the injury? So my lineup isn't without flaw, but hey you gotta admit it makes the Zach trade look a lot better.

 

[Kiyaman]

Wazup Isiah Advocate, somehow Jared Jefferies, Jerome James, and Malik Rose are missing from your lineup (That's over 20 Million dollars this season not being used). And we know Zeke.

Although, I like it, but Zeke would rather lose games by putting those players in the rotation. Which will make Q.Rich upset and have another early season injury, while other Knick Players follow in suit.

The Curry & Zack lineup need to be worked out before Training Camp.
It was important for Both Curry & Zack to break a sweat together at Mark Aquire Mini-camp.
Like Annoucer Walt Clyde Frazier said, "It will not look right at the start of the regular season experimenting with what players fit well with Curry & Zack on the court.". Isnt that what the Knicks did the last two seasons with Curry as their Starting Center???

 

[donchris]

Kiyaman I can tell from your posts that you're not a huge fan of Curry/Randolph which is cool but the flaw I see is that you use the summer league to discredit Curry and Randloph. Like look how great these kids are and look how much our starts suck. We haven't seen what Randolph and Curry can do yet but as good as these guys played in the summer league (I saw two games) they will not start and will get there young asses handed to them against the best in the league. There good performance doesn't take away from what Curry/Randolph can and will do for the Knicks, it enhances it. Nate, as good as he played doesn't fit in with this team and will still be traded. he's not a point guard, he's not a shooting guard, he's a short, short Marbury and we don't need another Marbury. I like Steph but NY needs a traditional point guard after Steph retires. I wanted Steve Blake three years ago and wanted to see Marbury play the two. It's a bit late for that because no one other than Marbury can run the offense but unless Nate starts averaging 5 assists off the bench per game I don't see him as Marbury's successor.

 

[FameMos]

Ideal Starting 5 and bench 4 this Knicks squad-

Marbury (Plays best w/ shooters around him. Penetrates and kicks out)
Nichols (Shooter)
Q (better reb than Nichols)
ZBo
Curry

Bench-
Nate (Off)
Crawford (Off)
Balkman (hustle & D)
Lee (Hustle &Reb)
Morris (Lil bit of erething)

Starting Lineup=PERFECT HalfCourt Offense...A lot of scoring...Decent D (Marbury, Nichols 'who can play a lil D', Q)....Everyone compliments eachother....Best lineup available 2 us as far as chemistry w/ Zbo and Curry.

Bench=PERFECT Fastbreak Offense...We would have the BEST bench in the NBA...HUSTLE&ENERGY....There's more but yall see where i'm commin from :teeth:

Bad thing about this is...Zeke won't make it happen

 

[Kiyaman]

Kiyaman I can tell from your posts that you're not a huge fan of Curry/Randolph which is cool but the flaw I see is that you use the summer league to discredit Curry and Randloph. Like look how great these kids are and look how much our starts suck. We haven't seen what Randolph and Curry can do yet but as good as these guys played in the summer league (I saw two games) they will not start and will get there young asses handed to them against the best in the league. There good performance doesn't take away from what Curry/Randolph can and will do for the Knicks, it enhances it. Nate, as good as he played doesn't fit in with this team and will still be traded. he's not a point guard, he's not a shooting guard, he's a short, short Marbury and we don't need another Marbury. I like Steph but NY needs a traditional point guard after Steph retires. I wanted Steve Blake three years ago and wanted to see Marbury play the two. It's a bit late for that because no one other than Marbury can run the offense but unless Nate starts averaging 5 assists off the bench per game I don't see him as Marbury's successor.

Alot of people did not believe me when I said the Golden State Wariors was going to knock out one of the top 3 teams in the West Playoffs when they signed Coach Don Nelson and made that trade with Indiana for Steven Jackson and Harrington.

Isiah along with the Media wont let Nate Robinson lead this team like the Phoenix Suns let Barbosa do, providing energy to his teammates.
Isiah is determine to build a team around Marbury Halfcourt game.
I dont think Isiah will let Mardy Collins lead this Knick team from the bench either, as long as Marbury can give him 35 MPG of a Halfcourt Set.
Crawford is a halfcourt set player.
Curry is a halfcourt set player.
Jefferies is a halfcourt set player.
Zack is a halfcourt set player.
Fred Jones is a halfcourt set player.

Its funny because Isiah only drafted two Halfcourt-set players that are NBA ready since he been here (Mardy Collins and Nichols). All the rest of the Young Knicks are Run and Gun, hustling athletic alley-oop players for a fast transition game on both sides of the court. Thats why the next team could use a Lee or Balkman in their rotation when you offer them Nate Robinson in a trade.

Stop Sleeping on the quality Play you get from a "David Lee & Balkman" Tandem with Nate Robinson running the show. Because its not Nate running the Offense\defense its all three of them talking on the break.

 

[nyk_nyk]

lets not get over uor heads now, this is only the summer league....when morris, plays againts guyl like duncan, yao, shaq, amare, howard, okafor, garnett, bosh, brand, and a few more of the seasoned all star caliber centers and power fowards, then we can really assess his talents.....he's good so far, but our starter will murder our bench

Thank you! Someone who understands the art of not getting to hyped over Summer League.

NEVER compare the performance of summer league to the actual season. Players who do may get their feelings hurt.

 

[KnicksFan4Realz]

The perfect Knicks starting lineup as far as team players would go I think would be the following...

PG- Collins--better to start a more defensive PG, as opposed to an offensive one than Marbury or Robinson who is a switch.

SG--Marbury at the 2 spot. Still would have the passing ability, and plus he is slasher..assuredly not a shooter like a Ray Allen. But a scorer that can tally up points. And with Collins at the 1, he'd be a better team defender than playing in a MAN defensive style.

SF--QRich on paper would be the best option here. Depends solely on his ability to stay healthy. He can be great at the wing, can give some rebounding help, post up if need be, and of course is a 3 point threat, and can drive to the basket.

PF-David Lee, the fact that he has earned it means alot. But here you have a Charles Oakley molded type of player, he can score in the post. And he works on that jumper...he can be amazing. Will add much needed offensive defensive rebounding, hustle, and blocked shots.

C-Eddy Curry, inside scoring ability for sure he has and some rebounding. Needs to pick up on the rebounding edge. Must learn to kick the ball out on double teams instead of forcing it up. And of course FT% must increase drastically. Also he needs to spread out more and cover other PF's and C's that can spread the floor.


Your Bench in this order....

PG- Robinson...he's a switch so he can play any style depending on the tempo of the game.

SG- Crawford...he'll be free to pursue his offensive habits...but must stay with his man on defense.

SF- Balkman...if he is as good defensively as many of you say he is...he can switch off on guarding the best offensive player on opposing teams same way SA uses Bowen.

PF-Rose...just as another defensive stopper..to help make up for the lack of Randolph at the 5. Remember you mainly have Robinson, Randolph, and Crawford for offense.

C-Randolph...why place him at the 5? Well for one thing he has that jumper that will make other C's have to guard him out on the perimeter...he has a low post game designed for that position..and placing him at the 5 as opposed to the 4 will cover up some of his defensive shortcomings until you can coach him up into being a better defensive player.


At all times you have 3 scorers...and albeit 2 primary defensive stoppers on the court at all times.

Then you still have....

Morris and another big body...
Nichols switch player..
Dickau steady PG with 3 ability..
Chandler switch player..
Jones mixture PG

***Must release****

Jerome James
Jared Jeffries.

 

[ShairanXIII]

We need a nice balance in our starting 5... again... let's not get gassed off the summer league...

PG - Steph... best defensive guard on the team... peep the game footage from last season... team leader... knows how to run the offense best... can knock down mid range shot and improved 3pt shot last season... Mardy and Nate aren't ready yet...

SG - Q Rich... best perimeter defender last season... can also knock down 3pt shot... can post and rebound...

SF - Balkman... patient man-to-man defender... incredible energy... can handle the rock effectively... won't be rellied on for scoring...

PF - Zebo... best big man on the squad... can hit anything within 19 ft of basket... good hands... great on block... can dribble... not a good help defender, but Aguire should be able to make him defend the post well enough...

C - Curry... best interior offensive threat... has been working with Aguire on rebounding and post presence... same defensive weaknesses as Zebo... but if Aguire can teach him to move his man off the block... can be serviceable since peremeter defense will be virginal...

Bench in this order...

Lee... everyone's favorite knick... should come in to relieve Zach at 4... either when Zach comes out or moves over to 5 when EC comes out...

Nate... IF he can play as under controll as he demonstrated during the summer league... then he deserves to be the #1 option off the bench...

Crawford... IF nate is the same old nate... then either him or crawford have to go... both need to dominate the ball too much to be effective... nice change of pace from Q though... and will have the entire offense at his disposal...

Nichols... works well off screens... good spot up shooter... great slasher... nice anticipation in the passing lanes... would work well when Zach or EC are on the court alone by knocking down shot opportunities from double teams...

Mardy... should move up depth chart if he recovers at the start of the season... best point guard option if healthy...

Chandler... better man defender than Nichols... should be used when Balkman or Q are in major foul trouble... if he becomes more consistent offensively... could move ahead of Nichols...

Dikau... nice option if Nate can't stay under controll and Mardy isn't healthy...
_________________________________________________________________

Rose... best defensive big man on the squad... should play spot minutes when Curry and ZBo are struggling...

Morris... needs to step us hustling to move up the depth chart... got major SLeague rebounds since teams concentrated on 'naldo, nate, nichols and chandler who were ALWAYS attacking boards... if his post play and rebounding are solid against big boys... he will move up the d-chart...

Jones... athletic (former slam dunk champ), agile defender... can fill in if Q-Rich or Jamal get hurt...
________________________________________________________________

James and Jeffries should be castrated...

 

[GiantsKnickFan]

I'd like to see the bench play the starters in camp. that might make things interesting.

 

[metrocard]

Shar's lineup would be the most affected and balanced lineup Isiah can give us this season.

Maybe Randolph/Curry > Boozer/Okur?

 

[ShairanXIII]

^^no doubt

 

[dr.carpy]

Boozer is untouchable. Okur wishes he was EC. Cmon now! Okur did his use magic act of totally disappearing in the playoffs! Hence the reason why Deron Williams and Carlos Boozer said those guys (Okur and Kirilenko)were soft and needed to show up. I don't have any respect for guys who stiff there teammates in the playoffs. It shows a lack of pride.

Oh and Metro: I had your back with smmarbury516. I hate to see anyone get racial slurs thrown at them. You've continued to do it through your signature. I'm black, and I don't use the N-word. Niccas = N word. I've got N.O.R.E' s cd and know the lyrics to Banned from Tv. Change the sig to something that doesn't involve the N word. I'm sure you can think of something far more clever and intelligent to have as your sig. I don't use racial slurs, no one else has a problem complying save only you and smmarbury516. I'm asking you nicely to change you sig. Thanks.

 

[metrocard]

I'm black, and I don't use the N-word.

Thats nice. Lets not make this a racial discussion, those are a waste of time. You grew up in Canada, I grew up in NYC, so we're never going to agree on the different between the slang term and racial term that are spelled similar.

I'll change my sig if it offends. But I hope you understand where I grew up, nigga was used frequently, growing up to that it became attached to me and my friends. I'm 19 now, so I don't try to use any street slang, even when I'm with my friends. I try to educate myself and my friends, at the same time keep it friendly like back in the streets, but not as ignorant. I hope you understand that, and I understand where you're coming from.

btw, its a sick punchline from Pun.

 

[dr.carpy]

so why do you need to quote it? You are capable of independent thought right? I'm just asking you to use your brain. Your response, shows a real lack of perception. Have you ever been addressed with a racial slur. Of course you have! Did you enjoy the experience? Probably not. All blacks aren't the same. Some relish the N word. I'm not one of those black people. I'm respect myself enough to know it was probably one of the last words that someone in my family tree heard before being lynched ,hung, castrated, or recieving some other vile form of abuse. You claim to go to college. Use some critcal thinking. If it's just a quote the try using a positive one that doesn't have racial undertones intelligent black folks would find offensive.

 

[metrocard]

so why do you need to quote it? You are capable of independent thought right? I'm just asking you to use your brain. Your response, shows a real lack of perception. Have you ever been addressed with a racial slur. Of course you have! Did you enjoy the experience? Probably not. All blacks aren't the same. Some relish the N word. I'm not one of those black people. I'm respect myself enough to know it was probably one of the last words that someone in my family tree heard before being lynched ,hung, castrated, or recieving some other vile form of abuse. You claim to go to college. Use some critcal thinking. If it's just a quote the try using a positive one that doesn't have racial undertones intelligent black folks would find offensive.

Understood. Didn't know if you read my edited post, but I get your point.