I don't like Billiups!

[iJoe]

Ijoe have I not backed up every single point I made in this thread?

I respect you because you're probably the only one in this entire forum who actually reads the whole thread and responds to just about every point.

I don't always agree with you, but its definitely awesome to see all your points. I just wish it didn't always end up like everyones in a playground and its a bunch of boys tryin to see who can puff up their chest bigger.

BTW... when people make broad and general statements (I'm guilty of this sometimes too) like "everyone knows this" or "real basketball people know" it really means jack shit. Bring up some specifics and it'll be worth reading. Now there are a few good people on these boards, but they're getting drowned out by the bad apples.

 

[nyk_nyk]

Short and sweet since my words scare you:

Felton has better stats then Billups this year. End of debate.

Billups averages more points (+1.0) playing 5 less minutes per game. Felton has the edge in assists (3.3), steals (.6) and rebounds (1.1).

Wasn't it you who explained how MDA's system creates more posessions thus inflating stats? Why would you go there with the stats when Billups didn't play in an uptempo system like MDA's? Are you for real man!

I don't care what stats you pull up from this year say. Billups is better right now and the league knows it. KO knows it. Your girl knows it. Just give it up man.

 

[nyk_nyk]

I respect you because you're probably the only one in this entire forum who actually reads the whole thread and responds to just about every point.

I don't always agree with you, but its definitely awesome to see all your points. I just wish it didn't always end up like everyones in a playground and its a bunch of boys tryin to see who can puff up their chest bigger.

BTW... when people make broad and general statements (I'm guilty of this sometimes too) like "everyone knows this" or "real basketball people know" it really means jack shit. Bring up some specifics and it'll be worth reading. Now there are a few good people on these boards, but they're getting drowned out by the bad apples.

Sorry dude but some things don't need to be that specific if you know basketball. I guess you don't get that. If I say Camby is better than Kaman, do I really have to waste time with specifics??? :teeth:

 

[TR1LL10N]

Billups averages more points (+1.0) playing 5 less minutes per game. Felton has the edge in assists (3.3), steals (.6) and rebounds (1.1).

Wasn't it you who explained how MDA's system creates more posessions thus inflating stats? Why would you go there with the stats when Billups didn't play in an uptempo system like MDA's? Are you for real man!

I don't care what stats you pull up from this year say. Billups is better right now and the league knows it. KO knows it. Your girl knows it. Just give it up man.

Really? NEWSFLASH!!! Denver is the #1 scoring team in the league! OOOOOPS! :teeth: There's that high basketball IQ at work again! BTW, 3.3 more assists is way more important than scoring 1 pore PPG. Not to mention the steals, rebounds and FG%. How is Billups currently better than Felton again? Come on dude, tell us!

LOL, just because I maybe in the minority does not make me wrong. At one point the majority of Americans voted for Bush. At one point the majority of people thought global warming was a myth. etc. etc.

 

[smokes]

Really? NEWSFLASH!!! Denver is the #1 scoring team in the league! OOOOOPS! :teeth: There's that high basketball IQ at work again! BTW, 3.3 more assists is way more important than scoring 1 pore PPG. Not to mention the steals, rebounds and FG%. How is Billups currently better than Felton again? Come on dude, tell us!

LOL, just because I maybe in the minority does not make me wrong. At one point the majority of Americans voted for Bush. At one point the majority of people thought global warming was a myth. etc. etc.

I still believe global warming is a myth!

 

[Red]

Pavlovian! Every post prompts you to scream out about our coach like Pavlov's dog and the bell. SMH. My rep? I could give an eff what you think. You have no rep and the "verdict" on that is most definitely in!

You are in MY thread screeching about MDA when we are talking about Billups yet you question my rep? I prove with stats who CURRENTLY is the better PG and you counter with absolutely nothing and you are talking about my rep? Dude you are a clown, your rep is nonexistent and you have been owned more times than a fleet of used cars.

2010 -11 Stats

PPG APG RPG​

Billups 16.9 5.3 2.6

Felton 15.9 8.6 2.6

Are you arguing 3.3 Apg. being the difference? Have you accounted for increased possessions? Billups is a 15.5 and 5.6 career PG WITH A FINALS MVP ON HIS RESUME.

Felton is a 13.7 and 6.8 career PG, with little to no playoff experience.

Felton avg's .3 more steals and .5 more turnovers than Billups.

AND BOTH ARE RENTALS!

Where is your argument? What's the compelling factor that has you writing like a lonely pen pal?
You gotta do better than that. And your insults indicate your frustration and lends to an assumption...

that you are emo and motivated by our recent struggles.

You don't like Billups, fine, not everyone does. But I don't like nor agree with your logic and reasoning.

I was only trying to help by suggesting you quit while ahead, but if you want to keep digging your grave go ahead.

to entertain myself, I'll look back and see who shares your sentiments. My bet is no one. Now you're the emo nerd...smh:user:

 

[iJoe]

Sorry dude but some things don't need to be that specific if you know basketball. I guess you don't get that. If I say Camby is better than Kaman, do I really have to waste time with specifics??? :teeth:

Actually, depending on what you argue yes. What exactly makes Camby that much better than Kaman. The two of them play a very different game. Do you consider Camby to be a great 1v1 defender? Does he post up? How about contract and age? Theres a shit ton of things you can argue about how different players fit into different teams and if their contracts are worth their value.

Prove you know basketball. If all your basketball knowledge comes from just watching TNT thats a bit sad.

 

[nyk_nyk]

Actually, depending on what you argue yes. What exactly makes Camby that much better than Kaman. The two of them play a very different game. Do you consider Camby to be a great 1v1 defender? Does he post up? How about contract and age? Theres a shit ton of things you can argue about how different players fit into different teams and if their contracts are worth their value.

Prove you know basketball. If all your basketball knowledge comes from just watching TNT thats a bit sad.

Dude are you serious??

 

[smokes]

Dude are you serious??

If we could get Camby or Kaman on the Knicks I'd take Kaman to be honest...

 

[TR1LL10N]

Yes he's a historical 6 APG PG, and those 6 APG won Detroit a championship and won Billups the MVP. Yeah that was 6 years ago and obviously he is not quite the same player,

Yes he was a finals MVP and had some monstrous playoff series but as you say that was 6+ years ago and his historical averages is all we can really expect especially given his age. I hope I am wrong and even mentioned in my OP before this became a long debate that I will embrace him if he can thrive. I would much rather admit I was wrong about him then vindicate my position at the expense of the Knicks.

but his assist numbers have nothing to do with how effective he is as a PG.

I respect you Smokes but this line to me is just craziness. A PG's most crucial stat is his assists and more pointedly his assist to turnover ratio. Other stats are important but this is factually the main stat of a pg.

In fact Billups is pretty much the PERFECT mentor for Toney Douglas who will never be tall enough to play SG but also lacks the ability to be a 10 assists type of PG.

I agree his experience and tutelage of any PG's we have is invaluable and I stated so several times already.

It's not only Billups who has played poorly, and he has only played poorly really since the injury. Melo had 2 pretty bad games and STAT just had a howler last night.

This is true but as you state here:

Also a PG is your main focal point especially under MDA which is added pressure and puts more on the shoulders of Billups to make this offense successful.

^^This is exactly why I think our struggles since the trade are mostly due to Billups hence my OP.

He's 34 BTW.

My bad.

 

[iSaYughh]

You know what upon researching Billups more I will go out on a limb and out right say it...the dude is OVERRATED!

Yes I said it! OVERRATED!

The guy has a career average of 5.6 assists per game to go along with his 2.1 TO's! That's less than 3:1 Assist to turnover ratio! Garbage! Add to it that he has a career 41 FG% and only averaged .2 steals per game and one must conclude that people are confusing a ring and classiness with actual skill. Yes, he won a title on a very deep Pistons team and played well in the playoffs, hitting some big shots but his overall career minus a few playoff runs has been MEDIOCRE at best.

Now the dude is 35 and doesn't want to be in NYC! I rest my case...

I agree completely Trill...he gets Derek Jeter hype and faith....without the Derek Jeter resume.

Btw my post before where I had the ^^ wasn't trying to contrast urs in any way.

 

[smokes]

Yes he was a finals MVP and had some monstrous playoff series but as you say that was 6+ years ago and his historical averages is all we can really expect especially given his age. I hope I am wrong and even mentioned in my OP before this became a long debate that I will embrace him if he can thrive. I would much rather admit I was wrong about him then vindicate my position at the expense of the Knicks.


I respect you Smokes but this line to me is just craziness. A PG's most crucial stat is his assists and more pointedly his assist to turnover ratio. Other stats are important but this is factually the main stat of a pg.



I agree his experience and tutelage of any PG's we have is invaluable and I stated so several times already.



This is true but as you state here:



^^This is exactly why I think our struggles since the trade are mostly due to Billups hence my OP.



My bad.

Honestly I only read your OP because this thread was 6 pages by the time I saw it, so if I say something you already mentioned forgive me :lol:

I agree assists are important for PG's but you have to remember the type of offense and players that have surrounded Chauncey in his main years (Detroit, Denver). I can't say I watched much of Detroit back then but I have watched a lot of Denver over the last 2 years in the playoffs, and hell we have Anthony right here. It's no surprise that Billups has low assist numbers when the main offense in Denver was Melo and most of his game involves going 1 on 1, creating his own shot, posting up, and finding a good midrange look. By the time Melo has created his own shot the assist is gone.

Players that average 8-10 APG generally have the ball a lot more, are 20-25+ PPG scorers themselves, and are surrounded either by a faster paced offense or players who catch and shoot. Felton did only average 8 APG here playing a very similar style of offense to the early D'antoni years where Duhon averaged 8 APG as a pass first PG. Chauncey is not a pass first PG.

Well, yeah I dunno. I mean he was out for 6 games. We still lost those games... So is that his fault?

I think the struggles of this team are just a result of the trade fullstop, and if we never traded Felton in the first place the transition would probably have been much easier, but we traded him so no point hankering for him now.

Best option I think, is to try to get Billups to take a low buyout in the offseason and sign him to a 4 year deal in the region of 5-6 million. A couple of years playing good minutes and mentoring Douglas followed by a couple of years as an impact bench player and lockerroom guy. One can dream.

 

[TR1LL10N]

Are you arguing 3.3 Apg. being the difference? Have you accounted for increased possessions?

3.3 more APG is HUGE and add in more rebounds, more steals and a better FG%! Denver has the most PPG this year so what inflated possessions are you talking about? For Billups? I guess that would magnify the disparity in stats even more further proving my case.

Felton is a 13.7 and 6.8 career PG, with little to no playoff experience.

No one is arguing that Billups does not have a better career or more experience but no one can deny that as OF THIS YEAR Felton is the better PG statistically. Maybe you want to argue intangibles like leadership and experience and that is fine but by their very definition they are intangible therefore subjective at best.

AND BOTH ARE RENTALS!

Felton was only a rental if we could upgrade to CP3 or Deron. Billups is a rental no matter what. Do you see that distinction?

Where is your argument? What's the compelling factor that has you writing like a lonely pen pal?
You gotta do better than that. And your insults indicate your frustration and lends to an assumption

Where is my argument? Well written clearly for you to read all over this thread. I'll sum it up for you:

Felton is in his prime and putting up better stats this year and Billups is in decline, putting up worse numbers, less conducive to our system(again, whether you like the system or not) and is less of a complimentary palyer for Amare. Do see my argument now!?

My insults? Go ahead and quote my first insult and I will quote at least 2 prior from you.

that you are emo and motivated by our recent struggles

Recent struggles? The last time I posted in your direction was to approve of your thread when you predicted the EC finals. You are the only clearly harboring pain from all the defeats you have suffered at my hands in the past. I'm sorry I debate so well and vex you so...I'll try and dumb it down next time so you can keep up!

You don't like Billups, fine, not everyone does. But I don't like nor agree with your logic and reasoning.

And I don't like your total lack of logic and reasoning. If you find flaws in my argument why don't you address my points instead of skirting them with talks about offtopic things like MDA?

to entertain myself, I'll look back and see who shares your sentiments. My bet is no one.

You know who shares my sentiments? The Knicks and Nuggets hence why Denver insisted on Billups being included for Felton and why NYC hesitated.

Now you're the emo nerd...smh

I disagree about me but your implication is that you once were the emo nerd so I will end this post on that one point we can agree on.

 

[Oldtimer]

Chauncy & Cap

Billups is scheduled to get $14.2M next year if the Knicks do not buy him out. The cost to buy him out, to be exercised five days after the end of the current season, is $3.7M.

If we keep Billups and add our committed salaries, about $1.1M for our first round draft pick and the minimum contract amount -- $467K -- for the phantom players necessary to get to a 12 man roster- we will be at about $61.175M in salary and well over the current $58M cap.

As i now understand, if we exercise our rghts to buy Billups out at $3.7M, that amount will count against our cap. By dropping him we reduce our cap by the difference -- $10.5M -- but have to add another phantom at $476K. This would give us a committed salary for the 2011-12 season of about $50.2M. The team at that point would be Amare', Melo, Fields, Douglas, Turiaf, Balkman, Rautins and whoever the 1st round pick will be. I trust we want to keep Shawne Williams and his signing will add to salary. But even with Wiliams, there is not much help for our super stars.

I like Billups, but he costs too much. And if he gets bought out I expect him to return to his Denver home. I think he loves New York but only at $14.2M.

We need more pieces and we do not have much with which to get them.

 

[Wargames]

Ok correct me if I am wrong but I believe the Knicks are gonna keep billups because his salary allows us to use the MLE & LLE this year and then his contract becomes a 14 million dollar expiring trade piece next year. That to me is worth a lot more than the $6 million that can be shaved from his contract to keep him.

 

[smokes]

Billups is scheduled to get $14.2M next year if the Knicks do not buy him out. The cost to buy him out, to be exercised five days after the end of the current season, is $3.7M.

If we keep Billups and add our committed salaries, about $1.1M for our first round draft pick and the minimum contract amount -- $467K -- for the phantom players necessary to get to a 12 man roster- we will be at about $61.175M in salary and well over the current $58M cap.

As i now understand, if we exercise our rghts to buy Billups out at $3.7M, that amount will count against our cap. By dropping him we reduce our cap by the difference -- $10.5M -- but have to add another phantom at $476K. This would give us a committed salary for the 2011-12 season of about $50.2M. The team at that point would be Amare', Melo, Fields, Douglas, Turiaf, Balkman, Rautins and whoever the 1st round pick will be. I trust we want to keep Shawne Williams and his signing will add to salary. But even with Wiliams, there is not much help for our super stars.

I like Billups, but he costs too much. And if he gets bought out I expect him to return to his Denver home. I think he loves New York but only at $14.2M.

We need more pieces and we do not have much with which to get them.

I think it's possible he would stay here. Plenty of players are taking pay cuts to play with superstars in big markets with potential for rings... HOWEVER... Billups already has a ring, and he doesn't seem like an ego guy who would care too much about multiple rings. So he's a wildcard in that department.

Buy out Billups and sign him to something like 3/6/6/6 (if thats possible my NBA salary knowledge is limited), we'll have 7ish million to flesh out the roster a bit. Hopefully that will buy us a big man and some depth at the 2.

Ok correct me if I am wrong but I believe the Knicks are gonna keep billups because his salary allows us to use the MLE & LLE this year and then his contract becomes a 14 million dollar expiring trade piece next year. That to me is worth a lot more than the $6 million that can be shaved from his contract to keep hi
.

Thats also a good point if its true. We could scrape a big man with the MLE and Billups contract would make a good trade piece at 14 million.

 

[iJoe]

Dude are you serious??

yeah I'm serious.... what do you honestly know about these players other than some numbers you've seen on a stat sheet and a passing mention by a tv "analyst"?

Its easy as hell to regurgitate what you've been told on tv. How about arguing some real points? It'll make these boards a whole lot more entertaining.

 

[Oldtimer]

Uncertainties

I am not sure what can be done before the current CBA ends and a new CBA begins. i do not expect a larger salary cap unless perhaps it is a hard cap. And who knows what if any of the current exceptions will remain.

However, if it is possible to trade Billups before the buy-out option must be exercised and under the current CBA, then he becomes very valuable for the same reasons Dampier's contract was valuable last year. We could trade Billups who carries a current salary of about $13M, but then the receiving team could buy him out for $3.7M. A team interested in a salary dump, might have someone of interest to us.

I believe there is a short window after the season within which trades may be resumed and before the current CBA will end. Perhaps there will be a lot of that activity this year. My memory is that there was a short window trade moratorium at the beginning of July. But when July begins this year, the old CBA is gone.

I just think it is too risky to keep Billups at $14.2M next year. We have no idea what $$ we might have available under a new CBA either next year or the year after. I am afraid with Amare's and Melo's contracts eating up $40M plus, we just will not have enough for the additinal pieces we desperately need.

 

[YungMelo15]

All BS aside, If we dont end up picking CP3, Deron, rondo, rose, westbrook, kidd, evans, or john wall then anybody other than billups is a downgrade. PERIOD!!!

TD is NOT a starting PG in this league yet, he is a young chauncey billups and it will take another year for him to be able to run a championship caliber team. (with the coaching of billups) Especially with our stars.

Not getting billups back and either drafting ANY college PG (except kyrie irving which we wont get) or putting TD at the start w/ carter at the reserve we are downgrading once again.

Billups can run a team, is a smart player, can score, clutch, capable of defending, a dependable veteran, and is likeable. You can throw stats around all you want, say he is old, say he doesnt want to be here, or even say he isnt fast enough to stick the elite PG's.

Point is, if you really know hoops, you know that billups can get it done. If he leaves and is not replaced by one of the players I mentioned earlier in this post, then we will NOT get better. Or if we get Dwight, then he can go lol

 

[KnicksFanFromQueens1985]

I understand that Billups has got off to a slow start & TR1LLION your one of my favorite posters around here (outstanding insight) but you went a little over board during the OP with the whole Billups is the main reason why we're struggling with those titles belong to the NBA's worst hole @ the Center position & overall lack of team defense.

But yeah, he's off to a rough start with a thigh bruise and what not, but for the fans who doubt Billups now, I truly believe we'll all learn to fall in love with what he does for the Knicks during the playoffs as a great veteran leader @ the PG position & thats something that a coach can not teach; playoff experience during pressure situations. Billups could be the main reason why we play calm under pressure situations during the playoffs. He's actually the main reason why I feel we can compete come playoff time. I'm just not a fan of his 12M contract this offseason. But yeah, I understand why you've been upset with Billups.