I'm beating a dead horse but Mike D is probably the problem

Nothing you highlighted means he doesn't care about defense. Here is a tidbit you did not highlight...

Really? Explain the meaning of this quote for me then...

?When bad things happen and naysayers pipe up and management ?suggests? that you post up more and commit more to defense, that?s when I climb up on the rooftop and say, No, bullshit, I won?t change,? he says. ?I am who I am, and I?ll be that guy till they ship me back to Italy.?

And this one.

and I?ll live with how many we give up. As we said in Phoenix, the team with the most points is the one that played the best defense.?
 

moneyg

Starter
Nothing you highlighted means he doesn't care about defense. Here is a tidbit you did not highlight...


beautiful post by clyde....

trill.. i didnt see anythin in your tibit with a referece to defense.. just his offensive scheme.. which is pretty good.. a lil And1ish.. but pretty darn good..

why r u avoiding the question.. its mike quotes..

are you saying these are not o'antoni's words???.. that a ghost got into him while he was making these comments...its the only argument you havent come up with yet...

THIS DUDE WILL TRY TO PROVE THE NBA WRONG..AT OUR EXPENSE...
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
D'antoni lovers are so difficult to debate with.They're like martyrs for the dude even though they probably have never met him personally.You are a rare exception.At least some of your posts actually make sense.But if D'antoni fails to win a championship with the talent that he has...I would like to see you be the first one to post a crow thread.

I am not a D'ant lover and stated in Red's Verdict thread that I will be the first to call for his resignation if we did not find success by the All-star break. Guess what, we are the 6th seed and have a winning record. This was accomplished with a fatally flawed roster and our best defenders injured. I think that warrants the coach some credit and affords him sometime to complete the roster and compete.

I do think his system can win and I reject the idea that an up-tempo system means you have to be weak at defense. Marry an elite offense with a decent defense and you will be a 60+ win team and title contender. D'ant has already shown that. Just because he did not win a chip in Phoenix does not mean he is incapable of doing so. The Suns were factually an elite team and title contenders. Maybe once could conclude that had the Suns won after he left but in fact they have yet to come close to the success under D'ant.

Was Riley's system fatally flawed because he could not win a chip with NYC? Of course not and he has many rings to prove it.
 

moneyg

Starter
Really? Explain the meaning of this quote for me then...

?When bad things happen and naysayers pipe up and management ?suggests? that you post up more and commit more to defense, that?s when I climb up on the rooftop and say, No, bullshit, I won?t change,? he says. ?I am who I am, and I?ll be that guy till they ship me back to Italy.?

And this one.

and I?ll live with how many we give up. As we said in Phoenix, the team with the most points is the one that played the best defense.?


TRIPLE +++1...

trill...im waiting...expalin this $hit
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Really? Explain the meaning of this quote for me then...

?When bad things happen and naysayers pipe up and management ?suggests? that you post up more and commit more to defense, that?s when I climb up on the rooftop and say, No, bullshit, I won?t change,? he says. ?I am who I am, and I?ll be that guy till they ship me back to Italy.?

And this one.

and I?ll live with how many we give up. As we said in Phoenix, the team with the most points is the one that played the best defense.?

Correct D'ant is not a defensive coach and rejects pressure to become one. Again, not being a defensive minded coach is very different than not caring about defense! His specialty is offense and no one is claiming he is an elite defensive coach. Thats not his game but to suggest he does not coach, care or preach defense has already been proven false.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
To attack a person directly is an Ad Hominem attack. Again you choose not to answer points that prove you're wrong. You'd rather not deal with those pesky facts, quotes from players and media that says MDA doesn't care about defense. You take a look at the stats of our team defensively and say... well those don't matter.

But, shouldn't those stats matter? Shouldn't his players comments matter?

Shouldn't it matter that he's never had a top tier defensive team. Shouldn't it matter that we are in the bottom third defensively? Shouldn't it matter that our point differential is.4?

Shouldn't his own quotes matter about how he wants to jack up as many shots as possible, even if it comes at the expense of defensive consistency.

And yes, playing energetic defense is ultimately going to slow down the offensive end as well. It's a matter of simple logic. Playing just the offensive end with so much intensity is going to take a hit on the player's energy on the defensive end. You leave the SSOL behind, they will have more energy to commit to the defensive end.

Show me one point that Id did not address directly. If so, I will be glad to address it. I don't dodge ever, I go out to prove my case and respond point by point. Thats why the overwhelming majority of this forum handed me the Tyson award for debating when the 2010 awards were being handed out.
 

moneyg

Starter
I am not a D'ant lover and stated in Red's Verdict thread that I will be the first to call for his resignation if we did not find success by the All-star break. Guess what, we are the 6th seed and have a winning record. This was accomplished with a fatally flawed roster and our best defenders injured. I think that warrants the coach some credit and affords him sometime to complete the roster and compete.

I do think his system can win and I reject the idea that an up-tempo system means you have to be weak at defense. Marry an elite offense with a decent defense and you will be a 60+ win team and title contender. D'ant has already shown that. Just because he did not win a chip in Phoenix does not mean he is incapable of doing so. The Suns were factually an elite team and title contenders. Maybe once could conclude that had the Suns won after he left but in fact they have yet to come close to the success under D'ant.

Was Riley's system fatally flawed because he could not win a chip with NYC? Of course not and he has many rings to prove it.


the suns were good with o'antoni
the suns were good without o'antoni
the suns are worse without amare...
 

moneyg

Starter
Show me one point that Id did not address directly. If so, I will be glad to address it. I don't dodge ever, I go out to prove my case and respond point by point. Thats why the overwhelming majority of this forum handed e the Tyson award for debating when the 2010 awards were being handed out.

answer this

why was..

the suns were good with o'antoni
the suns were good without o'antoni
the suns are worse without amare...
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
answer this

why was..

the suns were good with o'antoni
the suns were good without o'antoni
the suns are worse without amare...

The Suns were not as good without D'antoni. Fact! Look at the records and compare the playoff success.
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
I am not a D'ant lover and stated in Red's Verdict thread that I will be the first to call for his resignation if we did not find success by the All-star break. Guess what, we are the 6th seed and have a winning record. This was accomplished with a fatally flawed roster and our best defenders injured. I think that warrants the coach some credit and affords him sometime to complete the roster and compete.

I do think his system can win and I reject the idea that an up-tempo system means you have to be weak at defense. Marry an elite offense with a decent defense and you will be a 60+ win team and title contender. D'ant has already shown that. Just because he did not win a chip in Phoenix does not mean he is incapable of doing so. The Suns were factually an elite team and title contenders. Maybe once could conclude that had the Suns won after he left but in fact they have yet to come close to the success under D'ant.

Was Riley's system fatally flawed because he could not win a chip with NYC? Of course not and he has many rings to prove it.

I will eat my words, admit to my mistake, and say you were right if it does, Trill. But, I just can't see it happening with his SSOL system.

But again, I think there were points addressed by Clyde and myself that you have failed to reconcile with your theory. This year we had a new team, but a good team. A well assembled team. A bordering all-star point guard, a superstar in Amar'e, a great sixth man in Wilson Chandler, a burgeoning second-third option in Gallinari, and we still ended up with one of the worst defenses in the league. Bottom third whether you judge by PPG or Points Per Possession.

Are the players who say he doesn't care about defense wrong? Are his own words that he would rather have 5 midgets that can shoot than a 7 footer that plays defense not accurate?

I am of the belief that you need a great combo of both offense and defense to win rings. I do have a predilection to defensive teams -- just because that is what happens when you grow up with the Mid-90's Knicks; but, really, you need both.
 

moneyg

Starter
So it's the players...not the coach...that makes the difference? :)

depends on the player.. and depends on the coach

o'antoni didnot hurt phx.. thats for sure.. amare has....thats the facts...

would we be a better defensive team under tom tibs.???. hell yeah

would we be a better offensive team under tom tibs.. probably not..but we
would have more wins..and be in a better position to compete for a chip
 

MusketeerX

Rotation player
depends on the player.. and depends on the coach

o'antoni didnot hurt phx.. thats for sure.. amare has....thats the facts...

would we be a better defensive team under tom tibs.???. hell yeah

would we be a better offensive team under tom tibs.. probably not..but we
would have more wins..and be in a better position to compete for a chip

Very much agreed.
 

knicksin60

Starter
I am not a D'ant lover and stated in Red's Verdict thread that I will be the first to call for his resignation if we did not find success by the All-star break. Guess what, we are the 6th seed and have a winning record. This was accomplished with a fatally flawed roster and our best defenders injured. I think that warrants the coach some credit and affords him sometime to complete the roster and compete.

I do think his system can win and I reject the idea that an up-tempo system means you have to be weak at defense. Marry an elite offense with a decent defense and you will be a 60+ win team and title contender. D'ant has already shown that. Just because he did not win a chip in Phoenix does not mean he is incapable of doing so. The Suns were factually an elite team and title contenders. Maybe once could conclude that had the Suns won after he left but in fact they have yet to come close to the success under D'ant.

Was Riley's system fatally flawed because he could not win a chip with NYC? Of course not and he has many rings to prove it.

Explain how the Knicks lose to lesser talented teams like the Cavs, Clippers, Kings, Warriors and Timberwolves if the reason why D'antoni cannot coach this Knick team to a better record is because of a flawed roster.

The reason why D'antoni has kept a lot of players on the bench throughout his tenure here is because he is incapable of using players in a defensive role.Getting the best defensive center in the NBA wouldn't be the answer for the Knicks if D'antoni is still their coach.

Pat Riley's system wasn't the reason why the Knicks lost to the Rockets in the NBA finals, it was his refusal to bench John Starks that cost the Knicks an NBA championship.
 

Red

TYPE-A
D'ant has been stressing defense all year. You know this because I have pointed it out. You even went so far as to make a distinction between preaching and coaching defense as if that distinction isn't obvious. I countered with articles, videos and quotes showing how D'ant coached, not just preached defense. Now you want to pretend that he just started stressing defense...it's absurd!
YES the distinction is paramount as it reduces your assertion of coach yelling, speaking, saying, preaching as synonymous with a lesson on team defense, individual skills,and most importantly effectiveness of a strategic concept. Only a positive improvement on Stats will gauge this. But again its moot, because you and I both know his abilities are avg at best at doing so. Better players will mask and overcome that, but that by no means equates to prowess on MDA's part. It actually underscores the observations every creditable source has reached.

Further, not a single credible source is suggesting that Melo and Billiups are somehow running the show. The only story close to that is regarding the need to slow down the offense because both Melo and Billiups are better in a halfcourt offense. So D'ant adapts and is attacked as a figurehead and had he acted "stubborn" you would attack him for not being able to adapt! Damned if he does, damned if doesn't.

Incorrect and short sighted.
I have not only communicated my hope and support for coach to change and adapt but have given him props when he has demonstrated such. But a spade is a spade, and in this case as was with others, circumstance has forced him to do so. You see that as a knock on him. I see this not only as the truth and a blessing in disguise, but a referendum on what's been argued here. A change was needed, a humbling experience was needed to cut through the stubborn unproven approach he used.

And yes, that source you mentioned is your eyes and inference. Do you think its a coincidence we beat MIA with a slowed down offense whule holding them to 86 points with a brand new (semi new) team? Don't be naive.

See your problem is two fold:

1. You have formed an opinion on our coach during a rebuilding process and have not updated your thinking as new information becomes available. You look at every action or decision made through those tainted glasses. If we lose it's D'ants fault if we win it's the players fault! :barf:

I formed an opinion while maintaining openmindedness, I can't say the same about you; after researching and evaluating him in many situations on & off court. As of now I haven't seen anything to the contrary. Unlike others I have the ability to be objective and true without my fandum clouding my judgement. And again I held out hope as a true Knic fan should.

2. You listen to the national media and their historic bias against the Knicks and pick out what you agree with as truth. You discount their assertions on Amare being a "Robin" and not a Batman but run with the D'ant hate. You discount all the hate thrown at the Knicks by the national media unless it suites your own bias and agenda.

Huh? First I'm wondering how you mention creditable sources, have a propensity to quote the media, but claim I listen to national media...smh

Next, needless to say I listen and read many things,that's called being openminded. What you may not realize is an ability to form a valid opinion requires observing all angles, and as self absorbed asit sounds; I form my opinions BEFORE I read or hear most writers/reporters. They just echo my sentiments, because I like them am a student of the game.


BTW, you called the season over when we were 3-5 so D'ant having us in the 6th seed with a winning record should have made you happy but of course you moved the goal post in order to retain your bias. It's so obvious...

Let me remind you, there is no satisfaction in me seeing this team in the 6th spot in the East and get bounced. That's coming from my reluctance to settle, something you and others took offense too. I won't be completely satisfed until I see a gold ball and some rings.

But to delve deeper, not only were those limitating issues still on display but being a forward thinker I suspected a falsesenseof security that prevents us from achieving the concept of continuous improvement, a modo I live by, hence your outlook. Again I wasn't convinced nor satisfied


And apparently the fans and front office weren't either. As I saw it we were headed for a higher level of mediocrity. Without an ability to compete and overachieve on both sides of the court consistently signing 2 maxs won't matter.

Until I see what I know works, I will never settle. The changes we will see when we achieve more will reflect
What I and some knowledgable posters have been asserting. You'll see. MDA needed change and maybe its happening.
 
Correct D'ant is not a defensive coach and rejects pressure to become one. Again, not being a defensive minded coach is very different than not caring about defense! His specialty is offense and no one is claiming he is an elite defensive coach. Thats not his game but to suggest he does not coach, care or preach defense has already been proven false.

Elite defensive coach? What part of
and I’ll live with how many we give up. As we said in Phoenix, the team with the most points is the one that played the best defense.” dont you understand? I'll live with how many we give up seems to mean that he truly has no need for defense. Its secondary at best. Why the spin?

No one said they thought he was an elite defensive coach. Just that he doesnt give a darn about defense. He doesn't pay attention to it. Heck his quote above is telling you that in RED & WHITE.

So I guess you're the one who skipped school when reading comprehension was being covered? Correct?
 

KingofNy

Starter
Explain how the Knicks lose to lesser talented teams like the Cavs, Clippers, Kings, Warriors and Timberwolves if the reason why D'antoni cannot coach this Knick team to a better record is because of a flawed roster.

The reason why D'antoni has kept a lot of players on the bench throughout his tenure here is because he is incapable of using players in a defensive role.Getting the best defensive center in the NBA wouldn't be the answer for the Knicks if D'antoni is still their coach.

Pat Riley's system wasn't the reason why the Knicks lost to the Rockets in the NBA finals, it was his refusal to bench John Starks that cost the Knicks an NBA championship.

You are exactly right! Our problems will be fixed when Antoni is sent packing. Suns fans were overjoyed when Antoni got sent packing. Seriously. He did the same thing with them. He shunned all their defenders and big men only to favor guys that could run the court and shoot the three. Look how well it worked for them...Their first season without him they went to the Western Conference Finals without him and played much better defense. They practically shutout the Spurs in the second round... I know I was at the games. Antoni is an offensive assistant at best in this league.
 

Blas

Benchwarmer
You are exactly right! Our problems will be fixed when Antoni is sent packing. Suns fans were overjoyed when Antoni got sent packing. Seriously. He did the same thing with them. He shunned all their defenders and big men only to favor guys that could run the court and shoot the three. Look how well it worked for them...Their first season without him they went to the Western Conference Finals without him and played much better defense. They practically shutout the Spurs in the second round... I know I was at the games. Antoni is an offensive assistant at best in this league.

That is a short sighted statement...

Our problems are fixed when D'antoni is sent packing?

So we don't need a coach?

We need to replace him...

So what is better having D'antoni and not winning championships or hiring some shmoe that was fired for good reason and loosing? Or should we take a chance on unproven people? Marc Jackson right? He can make us a championship team! If that was the case why hasn't anyone hired him to even be an assistant?

Or please go on with speculations that when Phil Jackson retires he will come to the knicks, or we could get JVG!

Wake up to reality.

D'antoni isn't the best coach around, but we are winning NOW with him REGARDLESS of the reasons. This is the best we have been since the Layden era. Its the results that matter to fans no?
 

ronoranina

Fundamentally Sound
Elite defensive coach? What part of
and I?ll live with how many we give up. As we said in Phoenix, the team with the most points is the one that played the best defense.? dont you understand? I'll live with how many we give up seems to mean that he truly has no need for defense. Its secondary at best. Why the spin?

No one said they thought he was an elite defensive coach. Just that he doesnt give a darn about defense. He doesn't pay attention to it. Heck his quote above is telling you that in RED & WHITE.

So I guess you're the one who skipped school when reading comprehension was being covered? Correct?

When he says he'll live w as many points as we give up, he's alluding to the fact that his teams tend to have more points against due to the faster pace they play w. As I've said before, which you still seem to not get, points against is not a good way to measure the emphasis coach places on D. Other stats like d-rating, dfensive fg% are much better.:thumbsup:

Try to read between the lines a bit Clydeandthepearl.
 
Top