No ball movement at all!!

[CA7]

I'm not really understanding the scapegoating of Melo as to why were losing, 1 play in isolation and its a problem but when he's scoring no one says anything

we lost because

-rebounding
-Felton 3/19
-bad decision making AKA JR chucking a 3 on a fast break
-Melo playing 50 minutes
-Nets flopping changed a ton of possessions

not "iso-ball"

 

[WVKnickfan]

Melo took like 2 shots in the fourth quarter..yall cant be serious..felton lost us this game

Im not blaming melo for lastnights game b/c felton did shoot way to much when he was way off.The thing that im saying is look back over the few years mello and smith have been here.When the ball quits moving on a play its usually in mello's hands or smith.Mello was playing amazing when the season started.He was passing the ball,playing defense,even jumping into the stands after a ball.I know I was'nt the only one seeing those things? and I absolutely loved that mello b/c he got the whole team in the tempo BUT why did he quit.Yes he is scoring his points but anybody can if they kept the ball in their hands.Those players never win either and thats a fact.This team looked unbeatable when they was passing the ball and letting everybody shoot now they just look average at best.

 

[dasilva1079]

I agree, this one is not on Melo. Felton sucked ballz and if Chandler finally didn't have a good game we would have been blown out. I still think Chandler was soft on D, I'm a firm believer of throwing down the hammer on someone coming down the lane, make them think twice before coming back. Defense wasn't the greatest this game, but much much MUCH better than the last two loses. In the end we lost because of Felton's ridious shooting percentage and kidd not being on the court. Don't get me wrong, Felton was trying but i'll much rather have him drive to the whole instead of making moves to take a shot. I'm totally ok with him using the pick for those wide open jumpers by the free throw line even if they don't all go in...

 

[Red]

I can tell some of you don't know how the role of the coach and the system works.

Here it is...

Coach Woodson can draw up a thousand perfect plays, as was the case in crunch-time. Part of that is to recognize what the defense is giving you and adjust on the fly.

So for instance in crunch time, during the play when Felton (who was cold or shooting poorly) comes down and neglects to get Melo the rock, he drives the lane from the top of the key and shoots he floater.

Some might say "why would Felton shoot when he was so cold?". The answer is that the defense took the easy over the top pass away leaving Felton on soft coverage to try and create.

As a coach THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT FELTON TO DO. Ignore his previous misses
and take what the defense gives you. Matter of fact I would bet that's exactly what coach told him when drawing it up. Look for Melo at the free throw line extended and if they sag drive the lane and create.

Plays are drawn up, and systems are in place as a guide; a guide to achieve our goals (inside scoring and open shots are an example). What we see are players trying to play within the system yet mostly ad libbing during play.

This ad lib allows freedom of choices and players to play using their instincts withou always considering "the drawn up play",which will detract from a players effectiveness and render teams too predictable. If only certain players would take certain shots at certain times it becomes easy to defend.

The reality is players actually make the choice after assessing the situation If for instance a play is drawn up for Novak in the corner and for some reason Tyson is left open under the hoop, the PG MUST know to get Tyson the ball regardless of the play.

So Melo isolating isn't necessarily drawn up but develops and manifested basedon the circumstances and inparticular what the D gives you. Its the players job to use their skills to play and then rely on the system for structure. But nothing is set in stone. Players must have the savvy to decided what's best

Not the coach. The coach points us in a direction, the players take us there. If Ray feels a player is hot, even if a play isn't designed for that player, he has to be allowed to make independent decisions. Same goes for a player being open or an opportunity-In those cases we deviate just like when we fast break.

So chalk that up to poor decisions but not design. Melo is our leader, he got hot, he took the shots he was confident in. Not because woody said so, becase that how it goes. We just need to learn and close out. There is no design for that, its about execution even in ad libbed fashion.

Kidd will help that. Shump will help fortify the perimeter. And Stat should help us reduce threes and force plays because he's an obvious option.

 

[nyk_nyk]

So Melo isolating isn't necessarily drawn up but develops and manifested basedon the circumstances and inparticular what the D gives you. Its the players job to use their skills to play and then rely on the system for structure. But nothing is set in stone. Players must have the savvy to decided what's best

I agree with everything you said except for parts of this paragraph. There are times when Melo just wants the ball and is fighting hard for position (which is fine), but during those times when he is clearly being well covered, the ball should be swung around to the other side and not force fed to him. This is why the offense runs a bit smoother with Kidd in the lineup because he won't force anything and is quick to switch options. This itself promotes good ball movement.

I'll admit its really tough to call though when Melo is destroying every defender that tries to guard him. Still, you can't have guys just standing around watching him.

 

[Red]

I agree with everything you said except for parts of this paragraph. There are times when Melo just wants the ball and is fighting hard for position (which is fine), but during those times when he is clearly being well covered, the ball should be swung around to the other side and not force fed to him. This is why the offense runs a bit smoother with Kidd in the lineup because he won't force anything and is quick to switch options. This itself promotes good ball movement.

I'll admit its really tough to call though when Melo is destroying every defender that tries to guard him. Still, you can't have guys just standing around watching him.

I agree completely. I'm just saying that thats not drawn up, it's just an option on a long list of options. Most importantly it's the conclusion that the majority of what we see isn't scripted, its just playing ball.

But yeah Melo and really all the leaders and team must recognize there's a time and consequence for every decision. I'm thinking about MJ. Recall he could take over and iso all day, but he didn't.

He tried to score within the flow of the game and get others involved. This keeps other players on-point (or hot) so that in the event the rock finds them they won't be shooting cold. I thought this when JR forced a few shots and missed a few he should have made but he didn't shoot in a while- so I felt the odds of him making them were lower (and that he should have been involved more earlier).

But thats all flow, and leadership in the form of the PG's. They need to develop chemistry and contingency plans for different situations then learn to implement as needed. They need to get comfortable and know their limits.

Iso Melo on a back to back will fatigue him and he will fade. Other shooters will be cold and even though open will miss more. So I chalk this up to learning and chemistry. We need these experiences NOW so we can grow and realize...

we were competing NOT AT FULL Strength. Once we heal, fine tune the offense, and master our strengths and weaknesses

sky is the limit. I'm not worried at all. We have an unstoppable player. We just need to put it together.

 

[Kiyaman]

I can tell some of you don't know how the role of the coach and the system works.

Here it is...

Coach Woodson can draw up a thousand perfect plays, as was the case in crunch-time. Part of that is to recognize what the defense is giving you and adjust on the fly.

So for instance in crunch time, during the play when Felton (who was cold or shooting poorly) comes down and neglects to get Melo the rock, he drives the lane from the top of the key and shoots he floater.

Some might say "why would Felton shoot when he was so cold?". The answer is that the defense took the easy over the top pass away leaving Felton on soft coverage to try and create.

As a coach THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WANT FELTON TO DO. Ignore his previous misses
and take what the defense gives you. Matter of fact I would bet that's exactly what coach told him when drawing it up. Look for Melo at the free throw line extended and if they sag drive the lane and create.

Plays are drawn up, and systems are in place as a guide; a guide to achieve our goals (inside scoring and open shots are an example). What we see are players trying to play within the system yet mostly ad libbing during play.

This ad lib allows freedom of choices and players to play using their instincts withou always considering "the drawn up play",which will detract from a players effectiveness and render teams too predictable. If only certain players would take certain shots at certain times it becomes easy to defend.

The reality is players actually make the choice after assessing the situation If for instance a play is drawn up for Novak in the corner and for some reason Tyson is left open under the hoop, the PG MUST know to get Tyson the ball regardless of the play.

So Melo isolating isn't necessarily drawn up but develops and manifested basedon the circumstances and inparticular what the D gives you. Its the players job to use their skills to play and then rely on the system for structure. But nothing is set in stone. Players must have the savvy to decided what's best

Not the coach. The coach points us in a direction, the players take us there. If Ray feels a player is hot, even if a play isn't designed for that player, he has to be allowed to make independent decisions. Same goes for a player being open or an opportunity-In those cases we deviate just like when we fast break.

So chalk that up to poor decisions but not design. Melo is our leader, he got hot, he took the shots he was confident in. Not because woody said so, becase that how it goes. We just need to learn and close out. There is no design for that, its about execution even in ad libbed fashion.

Kidd will help that. Shump will help fortify the perimeter. And Stat should help us reduce threes and force plays because he's an obvious option.

Red .... what u say makes sense to a certain point .. this was our 12th game of the season where ball movement is a neccessity to gain a gellin-chemistry on offense throughout the next 30 games.
Having a veteran roster we should be seeing a Knicks offense where 3 to 4 players get touches on offense before the shot on every other time on offense (like the Spurs do, this is why Parker always gets a straight path layup).
Double screen plays should be in our play book for tough defensive teams so we can keep 3 to 4 players getting touches within 20 seconds ..
the Nets coach Avery Johnson did put some nice defensive lineups on the floor, but the Nets defense still had flaws where Tyson Chandler had great postup positions to score and put the Nets bigmen in foul trouble.
It looks like we forgot that Tyson, Camby, Rasheed, and Kurt has careers of being great passing bigmen that set wide screens to set in our halfcourt offensive-plays.

When we have consecutive trips on offense where a shot is taken and only two players touch the ball .. this play is called a pick n roll, give n go, back door play, or individual offense (ISO-offense) when a player force up a shot with one or more defenders covering him (Melo & JR).
In the last 7 games we see one or maybe 2 passes on the offensive-end then the shot .. Melo, JR, and Felton has been the top 3 players with the most shot attempts in the 3-4 record.

Melo has a career where only two or three players get touches on the offensive end .. this is why Melo is a regular season player, not a postseason player .. and we watch our PG-Felton feed into this ISO sillyness for a loss vs the Nets. When Felton were suppose to have some PG leadership to find opening for other teammates to score other than Tyson and himself.

 

[NYCLakerfan]

The OP of this thread is 100% correct and I think besides Amare and Shump being injured this iso style of ball the Knicks for some reason reverted back to in the last 4 games is the biggest reason for these losses.

I don't get why they stopped playing teamball it was working so well now there's no ball movemnt, no player movement, no off ball screens, and rarely and PnR.

Iso ball is not conducive to winning at all and idk if this is a flaw on Mike Woodson's part since this is what he was criticized for in ATL or Felton for setting a bad tone of getting mines instead of setting up my team like a PG is supposed to.

 

[smokes]

Touching on the points of Red and nyk_nyk, I think the issue could come down to trust. During the first 2-3 quarters of games Melo can score and defer with ease, there is little pressure and they play some great ball playing through Melo ISO, drawing the double team and swinging the ball around.

Later on in games however Melo, JR and Felton in the Nets game had plays here and there which were typical "I have to score now" plays. They should be playing team ball every time up the court, not 75% of the time.

 

[Kiyaman]

The team played bad defense (once again) and gave up a ton of offensive rebounds. Stop using Melo as the scapegoat. Novak, Melo and Chandler were the main culprits with the bad defense.

Anytime u see a offense where only two players get touches on the offensive-end consistently throughout the entire game .. the rest of the players effort on offense/defense start dissapearing .. if u didnt know that was Melo career with the Denver Nuggets, untill Billups showed up to share the ball with the rest of the Nuggets teammates .. which made Melo want out of Denver.

Now Melo is bringing that same SHAAAT to the Knicks .. Jason Kidd does not play that type of game or system, so expect the old-head veterans to fall in suit with Amare.

REAL Talk
I mention Melo's 9 point performance of taking the Spurs best defenders away from the basket for a Knicks win over the Spurs.
I also mention Melo's 9 point performance dropped Melo's scoring average down to 22 points.
Will Melo ever play possum like that again? HELL NO!
However, Melo wants Amare to play possum every game, which took Amare out of being selected to the all-star team lastseason.
Did u and others expect Amare to do the samething this season, while Melo get all the lime-light for keeping the Knicks a .500 team .... I dont think so.

 

[platnumn]

REAL Talk
I mention Melo's 9 point performance of taking the Spurs best defenders away from the basket for a Knicks win over the Spurs.
I also mention Melo's 9 point performance dropped Melo's scoring average down to 22 points.
Will Melo ever play possum like that again? HELL NO!
However, Melo wants Amare to play possum every game, which took Amare out of being selected to the all-star team lastseason.
Did u and others expect Amare to do the samething this season, while Melo get all the lime-light for keeping the Knicks a .500 team .... I dont think so.

Sorry man I disagree all around. First of all, Amar'e TRIED to get his always and often, he just was not able to convert. -- Melo was NOT preventing him from doing that and neither was the coach. When you have a player like Amar'e yeah, you can use him as a decoy.....but we were doing anything BUT that, as Amar'e was given free reign to shake and bake and pop from 15ft out (decoys don't often actually attempt shots).

Why do you think Melo won't play 'possum' again? I can't find anything reasoning. I think he can and will if he's bottled up as such, the Spurs play the best team defense in the league outside of Miami and they effectively neutralized Melo, forcing him to be productive in other ways. It didn't help that Melo's open looks weren't falling either, so he recognized he needed to get going in other ways.

Brooklyn however, could NOT neutralize Melo, neither by team or individual defense. Melo missed a ton of open looks he should have made, but in general he could get his shots off.

The only thing I do agree with you is that YES, teammates tend to stop playing hard defense when the offense only runs through 1 or 2 people -- they stand around, looking uninterested instead of moving around, setting picks, boxing out -- that's on the coach to illustrate.

....But the notion that Melo won't ever defer again is not in any way true.

 

[NYk_Reloaded718]

Theirs only one person to blame for the "no ball movement" and thats Mike woodson.

It's the coaches duty to demand more ball movement, he's not standing on the side observing the game for nothing.

Thats not why we lost against Brooklyn though... Felton single handedly lost us that game.... 3 -19. FGM-AT

 

[NYCLakerfan]

Theirs only one person to blame for the "no ball movement" and thats Mike woodson.

It's the coaches duty to demand more ball movement, he's not standing on the side observing the game for nothing.

Thats not why we lost against Brooklyn though... Felton single handedly lost us that game.... 3 -19. FGM-AT

But it actually is since Feltons selfish play is indicative to how the Knicks played as a whole. If the whole team played better team ball then Felton does not take nearly as much shots and Melo's most likely not tired.

 

[ronoranina]

Sorry to say it but Melo is worried about his scoring average. He should swing the ball more and look to get others involved in the game early. He should look to get his own offense in spurts.

Unfortunately Melo is the type of scorer that needs to get into a fine rhythm to get going. He doesn't switch from focused ball movement and creating for others to looking for his own offense without losing his scoring rhythm. So he tends to either be in one mode or the other. He would much prefer to look for his own shot at the detriment of teammates alot of times I'm afraid.

In the first few games I thought he turned over a new leaf but I was wrong.

Durant is more unselfish while also being more efficient. He is better than Melo in both aspects.

I think Smith has actually looked for teammates much more than he has in the past. I like the way he's been playing recently.

 

[WVKnickfan]

Now tonight was exactly what I have been wanting to see from the knicks.Ball movement was the key in the knicks winning the game tonight.Everybody scored mello still got his huge points with felton,backup pg(can't think of his name),chandler,novak.Everybody was scored tonight b/c they shared the ball.

 

[Kiyaman]

Sorry man I disagree all around. First of all, Amar'e TRIED to get his always and often, he just was not able to convert. -- Melo was NOT preventing him from doing that and neither was the coach. When you have a player like Amar'e yeah, you can use him as a decoy.....but we were doing anything BUT that, as Amar'e was given free reign to shake and bake and pop from 15ft out (decoys don't often actually attempt shots).

Why do you think Melo won't play 'possum' again? I can't find anything reasoning. I think he can and will if he's bottled up as such, the Spurs play the best team defense in the league outside of Miami and they effectively neutralized Melo, forcing him to be productive in other ways. It didn't help that Melo's open looks weren't falling either, so he recognized he needed to get going in other ways.

Brooklyn however, could NOT neutralize Melo, neither by team or individual defense. Melo missed a ton of open looks he should have made, but in general he could get his shots off.

The only thing I do agree with you is that YES, teammates tend to stop playing hard defense when the offense only runs through 1 or 2 people -- they stand around, looking uninterested instead of moving around, setting picks, boxing out -- that's on the coach to illustrate.

....But the notion that Melo won't ever defer again is not in any way true.

Sorry .. u made some valid points but .. Amare career is much more define as a winning team-player than Melo's at the foward position.

Amare has a career average of 15 shots per game for 21 pts and 9 rbds when compared to Melo career average of 20 shots per game for 24 pts and 6 rbds.
Amare's teams average a little above 90 shots per with Marbury, or Nash, or Felton at the PG .. when Melo's team average 88 shots per under Miller, or AI, or Billups at PG. Its a helluva big difference.

The only thing Melo has above Amare are ..
Melo is the halfcourt player u give the final shot to win a game, which gives Melo a much bigger NBA fan-base than Amare.

When Melo joined the Knicks, Amare's shot attempts drop to 13 shots per in a non-transition system, while Melo's shot attempts increase to 21 shots per in a 48 minute halfcourt set offense .. with the Knicks team averaging below 90 shot attempts per game.

 

[CA7]

Sorry to say it but Melo is worried about his scoring average. He should swing the ball more and look to get others involved in the game early. He should look to get his own offense in spurts.

Unfortunately Melo is the type of scorer that needs to get into a fine rhythm to get going. He doesn't switch from focused ball movement and creating for others to looking for his own offense without losing his scoring rhythm. So he tends to either be in one mode or the other. He would much prefer to look for his own shot at the detriment of teammates alot of times I'm afraid.

In the first few games I thought he turned over a new leaf but I was wrong.

Durant is more unselfish while also being more efficient. He is better than Melo in both aspects.

I think Smith has actually looked for teammates much more than he has in the past. I like the way he's been playing recently.

:barf:

wow dude really Carmelo only cares about his scoring average

we're 10-4 and guys are still bashing him, I guess he should never shoot wait no how about we waive him that way he can go be appreciated by another fan base since everything he does is wrong

 

[ronoranina]

I do not believe Melo needs to average 27 ppg (26.9 to be exact) for this team to be successful.

Melo scores in his sleep. I would like for him to put more focus on his defensive energy/ effort, and on getting his teammates involved. It'd be great if he could up his assist average to atleast 3. He's averaging under 2 assist on the year so far smh. It's no secret he likes to score. He needs to be more well-rounded.

Common man.. I don't think I'm being that unfair.

You negged me for my opinon you quoted. What a prom night dumpster baby you are. That's a bitch move.

:barf:

wow dude really Carmelo only cares about his scoring average

we're 10-4 and guys are still bashing him, I guess he should never shoot wait no how about we waive him that way he can go be appreciated by another fan base since everything he does is wrong

 

[smokes]

I don't see why saying Melo not being on the same level as Durant is such a bad thing. As an overall player I'd have to agree.

Melo might be a stronger pure scorer than Durant but Durant is a more complete player.

I like Melo's facilitating this year but he could be doing more late in games I think. They used him as a decoy against the Nets but they never played the ball through him. IDK why it makes so much more sense to have him involved, maybe Woodson worries he won't pass up shots late in the shot clock late in games.

 

[WVKnickfan]

When is this team going to learn you can't win if you don't MOVE the ball around until you find the open guy.Its sickning to watch a nba team play so great this season b/c they had moved the ball around for a wide open shot.Then all of a sudden watch the same team that had played so great b/c of that start playing one on one or watching the pg dribble the clock out while the other four players just stand there doing nothing.