ANU
Starter
he's good.but this offense is predicated on ball movement.he's probably a sg version of no sharrington.
the jrue holiday bandwagon thread.
- Thread starter ANU
- Start date
New New York
Quiet Storm
Only 19, and was forced to play out of position last year.
metrocard
Legend
eh...I wouldn't be MAD if we got JRue, I don't wanna put too much on a guy who has no experience in running an offense...I wish people get tired of basing their decesions on potential rather than experience.
New New York
Quiet Storm
I hear you, I mean no NFL team drafts off of potential of a second string QB! but the reason most people are so high on potential (myself included) when it comes to the draft is that sometimes drafting the more experienced player over potential can get a player like Jason Collins (who was a Senior) over a player like Zach Randolph (a freshman). Now to your point, you could draft off of potential (Telfair) over proven talent (Nelson) and get burnt too.
Bottom line it is like Mike Dantoni said last year, "the draft is not an exact science". Players look good on paper and You Tube Highligts and turn out to be Journeymen in The League. I like Jrue's potential, but honestly I have not watched a single UCLA game this year, my infatuation with his game is off of scouting reports and what they were saying about him coming out of Highschool, so ofcourse there is bust potential there.
But, it is possible that Rubio, even with all his experience playing Pro Ball could be a bust. I mean if I were drafting off experience alone at the 8 spot I would probably take Ty Lawson, a proven floor general on a National Championship Team, but have we seen the best of him? Matten Cleaves was probably the best PG in his class, but he was as good in college as he would ever be, Thus we have to consider the potential of players as well experience.
ANU
Starter
http://www.theknicksblog.com/2009/05/30/henderson-on-the-radar-lawson-a-long-shot/
knicks blog via berman
dantoni on holiday.....
knicks blog via berman
dantoni on holiday.....
jrue quote
ANU
Starter
CHICAGO -- UCLA's Jrue Holiday said his goal is to go No. 1 in the draft. USC's DeMar DeRozan said he feels he can leap higher than Vince Carter. These Pac-10 freshman from L.A. are cocky enough for the Broadway stage.
KNICKS BLOG
Holiday, a 6-foot-4 point guard, and DeRozan, a 6-foot-7 shooting guard, have scheduled workouts with the Knicks and will be considered by the team if they are still on the board at No. 8 and the Knicks decide against Stephen Curry.
The Knicks' No. 1 priority is grabbing a scoring point guard, and Holiday has opened a lot of eyes at the NBA Draft Combine that finished yesterday.
"I'm shooting for No. 1 to be honest," Holiday told The Post. "I'm definitely shooting for the sky."
The Knicks interviewed Holiday on Wednesday. "New York is the closet thing to L.A.," Holiday said. "And I love L.A."
With his stock rising, Holiday, realistically could go as high as 5. He played mostly shooting guard at UCLA because the Bruins had Darren Collison.
"He has so much potential, it's scary," Collison said.
Mark June 9 on the calendar. That's when the Knicks will host their point-guard battle royale that could determine which player they will select.
Holiday will go against Curry, and point guards Johnny Flynn of Syracuse and UNC's Ty Lawson, who measured 5-foot-11 at the combine and is considered a Knicks longshot.
"Why not play against the best players?" Holiday said.
Flynn of Syracuse is also champing at he bit.
"It's definitely a great group," Flynn said. "This year's draft class for point guard is so deep, top to bottom. I like seeing how I'll add up. I can' t wait to get after them."
Holiday is by far the biggest of the point guard group. After playing 5-foot-7½ Nate Robinson the past few years, that might be attractive.
"I definitely think it's an advantage," Holiday said. "I'm a big point guard, I can post up little guards. I can rebound and I can see the rim. On defense they have to get by me. I have a long wingspan. It's definitely harder to see over me."
Mike D'Antoni sees the upside in Holiday.
"He was smooth and uses some of his point guard skills," D'Antoni said. "We'll get a better handle when he comes to New York. He shoots nicely and looked real fast, like he had another gear he can go to."
The super-athletic DeRozan is also on the Nets' radar at 11.
"A lot of people think I can jump higher than Vince Carter," DeRozan said. "Now I get a chance to step in and see if people will still compare me to Vince."
Though Curry still is the favorite, Holiday, DeRozan, Flynn and even Duke shooting guard Gerald Henderson, who emerged in Chicago onto the Knicks' radar, are still in the mix.
"There's a lot of talk about Curry and we should talk about him, but it's really not true we're locked in on him," D'Antoni said. "He's not the only guy. There's four, five we really have to evaluate."
*
Brooklyn's Taj Gibson, a power forward from USC, said teams have told him he'll likely go late first round. . . . Wake Forest PF James Johnson said he'll work out for the Nets and Knicks.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/05302009/sports/knicks/knicks_eye_confident_l_a__pair_171623.htm
lovin it.........
KNICKS BLOG
Holiday, a 6-foot-4 point guard, and DeRozan, a 6-foot-7 shooting guard, have scheduled workouts with the Knicks and will be considered by the team if they are still on the board at No. 8 and the Knicks decide against Stephen Curry.
The Knicks' No. 1 priority is grabbing a scoring point guard, and Holiday has opened a lot of eyes at the NBA Draft Combine that finished yesterday.
"I'm shooting for No. 1 to be honest," Holiday told The Post. "I'm definitely shooting for the sky."
The Knicks interviewed Holiday on Wednesday. "New York is the closet thing to L.A.," Holiday said. "And I love L.A."
With his stock rising, Holiday, realistically could go as high as 5. He played mostly shooting guard at UCLA because the Bruins had Darren Collison.
"He has so much potential, it's scary," Collison said.
Mark June 9 on the calendar. That's when the Knicks will host their point-guard battle royale that could determine which player they will select.
Holiday will go against Curry, and point guards Johnny Flynn of Syracuse and UNC's Ty Lawson, who measured 5-foot-11 at the combine and is considered a Knicks longshot.
"Why not play against the best players?" Holiday said.
Flynn of Syracuse is also champing at he bit.
"It's definitely a great group," Flynn said. "This year's draft class for point guard is so deep, top to bottom. I like seeing how I'll add up. I can' t wait to get after them."
Holiday is by far the biggest of the point guard group. After playing 5-foot-7½ Nate Robinson the past few years, that might be attractive.
"I definitely think it's an advantage," Holiday said. "I'm a big point guard, I can post up little guards. I can rebound and I can see the rim. On defense they have to get by me. I have a long wingspan. It's definitely harder to see over me."
Mike D'Antoni sees the upside in Holiday.
"He was smooth and uses some of his point guard skills," D'Antoni said. "We'll get a better handle when he comes to New York. He shoots nicely and looked real fast, like he had another gear he can go to."
The super-athletic DeRozan is also on the Nets' radar at 11.
"A lot of people think I can jump higher than Vince Carter," DeRozan said. "Now I get a chance to step in and see if people will still compare me to Vince."
Though Curry still is the favorite, Holiday, DeRozan, Flynn and even Duke shooting guard Gerald Henderson, who emerged in Chicago onto the Knicks' radar, are still in the mix.
"There's a lot of talk about Curry and we should talk about him, but it's really not true we're locked in on him," D'Antoni said. "He's not the only guy. There's four, five we really have to evaluate."
*
Brooklyn's Taj Gibson, a power forward from USC, said teams have told him he'll likely go late first round. . . . Wake Forest PF James Johnson said he'll work out for the Nets and Knicks.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/05302009/sports/knicks/knicks_eye_confident_l_a__pair_171623.htm
lovin it.........
metrocard
Legend
ANU, you compaigning for Jrue Holiday hard, but I can't blame you.
Any PG that plays defense gets an okay for from me.
The only question I have of Holiday is his ability to run the offense and shoot the ball.
Collison did a lot of it in UCLA...I was hoping JRue to stay another year to show case more of his PG abiltiies.
But he may be different.
He may be better learning on the job.
I don't know that.
So I remain with a ? about JRue.
Any PG that plays defense gets an okay for from me.
The only question I have of Holiday is his ability to run the offense and shoot the ball.
Collison did a lot of it in UCLA...I was hoping JRue to stay another year to show case more of his PG abiltiies.
But he may be different.
He may be better learning on the job.
I don't know that.
So I remain with a ? about JRue.
metrocard
Legend
WEAKNESSES:
- Ability to get to free throw line
- Go-to scoring mentality
- Not a true point guard
- Stuck between 1 and 2
- Limited upside?
- Not always assertive
- Not ready to contribute immediately
- College system makes him difficult to evaluate - Jack of all trades, master of none?
- Not productive enough
- Relatively unproven
- Tweener?
- Average athleticism
- Average explosiveness
- 3-point range
- 3-point shooting percentages
- Free throw shooting
- Pull-up jumper
Firstly, this is a scouting report from the most respectable draft resource in the world, so its legit stuff.
Can Jrue work hard enough to turn these weaknesses into strengths? Yes.
But still...its hard to make him a for sure pick with all these glaring weaknesses.
The fact he isn't a good passer, nor an elite scorer has his stuck.
He's Rodney Stuckey part two...good defensive combo guard with a lack of range and is stuck in between two positions.
Someday, Jrue will become a 15/5/5 player.
His max potential IMO, is Larry Hughes in Washington.
22/5/5/2 stls ...probably an all star.
Thats the max...I'm being pretty kind, because JRue obviously got mad talent to get to that level. But he hasn't showned it in UCLA, so to believe he will get to that level is all based on hope.
- Ability to get to free throw line
- Go-to scoring mentality
- Not a true point guard
- Stuck between 1 and 2
- Limited upside?
- Not always assertive
- Not ready to contribute immediately
- College system makes him difficult to evaluate - Jack of all trades, master of none?
- Not productive enough
- Relatively unproven
- Tweener?
- Average athleticism
- Average explosiveness
- 3-point range
- 3-point shooting percentages
- Free throw shooting
- Pull-up jumper
Firstly, this is a scouting report from the most respectable draft resource in the world, so its legit stuff.
Can Jrue work hard enough to turn these weaknesses into strengths? Yes.
But still...its hard to make him a for sure pick with all these glaring weaknesses.
The fact he isn't a good passer, nor an elite scorer has his stuck.
He's Rodney Stuckey part two...good defensive combo guard with a lack of range and is stuck in between two positions.
Someday, Jrue will become a 15/5/5 player.
His max potential IMO, is Larry Hughes in Washington.
22/5/5/2 stls ...probably an all star.
Thats the max...I'm being pretty kind, because JRue obviously got mad talent to get to that level. But he hasn't showned it in UCLA, so to believe he will get to that level is all based on hope.
knickzrulezH20
Sexy Stud
i think he'll be a good starter in the league, nothing more, westbrook>holiday in my opinion. his defense is what impresses me most, so lets see if he improves that offense and proves me wrong.
ANU
Starter
i know this all ready.every player in the draft has weaknesses.his ceiling is larry hughes? in this system larry's played well.i don't see how that could be a bad thing. he(holiday) isn't known as a greedy player that's only in it for himself.he's a 18 year old kid, who went to ucla and played out of position the whole year.oj mayo went usc .that was his team practically,and he looked like shit.didn't you come up with a thread about how much the knicks would regret not getting him?how effective would he have been in this offense, when it's predicated on ball movement? we all know he needs the ball at all times.
you might as well be on the evans bandwagon not on lawson's.lawson is average.he's what, a pass first version of nate with out the explosiveness? a lawson pick looks like the sweetney pick to me.
drafting someone like holiday(defensive players that fit the system) isn't something i came up with.it's what donnie beleived in since he hired d'antoni.which is why he was open on westbrook last year.it makes obvious sense.
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ANU
Starter
from knicks blog.
http://www.theknicksblog.com/2009/06/01/defending-the-system/<table width="100%" bgcolor="#02549d" border="0"><tbody><tr><td width="1%">
</td> <td width="99%"><table width="100%" border="0"> <tbody><tr> <td>Defending the System</td> </tr> <tr> <td>By Tommy Dee - Jun 1, 2009 9:15 am</td> </tr> </tbody></table></td> </tr> </tbody></table> When I think of the Knicks moving forward with Mike D?Antoni, I get the feeling that Knickfans are still a bit unsure about how the Knicks will handle playoff basketball defensively.
My biggest problem with that thought is that many fans feel this way based on the fact that the playoffs revolve around the idea that defense wins championships and that blue collar effort was so enjoyable to watch for the better part of the 1990s.
I?ll defend D?Antoni?s system in several ways. First, like ESPN analyst Tim Legler said this morning on SportsCenter, we know Lebron James wants championships and can question the fact that D?Antoni?s system hadn?t won a title in Phoenix. As you know, there wasn?t a shadow of a doubt in my mind that had Amar?e not been suspended the Suns win a title. Had that not happened, along with another situation that people don?t like to talk about anymore, D?Antoni may still be in Phoenix, but odds are he still may have left and had a NBA title under his belt along with Olympic Gold.
Be that as it may, Donnie Walsh understands what it means to play defense in this league. There is little doubt that Walsh will look to add, in any way he can, a player who can score and play defense thus making the team less one-sided. And let?s not get it twisted, defensive schemes come from preparation and often make poor defenders look adequate. I mean, Wally Szczerbiak wasn?t exactly Bruce Bowen, but before the Magic series he was solid all season long.
I look at a player like Al Harrington, whom Walsh brought here, as the type of helping two-way player who would mesh with a player like James on both ends of the floor. Sure, this season Harrington didn?t do much defensively, but he?s shown the ability to play big-game defense on the perimeter, and I believe his efforts will heighten the bigger the games get. I?ve seen from other players around the it a ton of times. I mean, was Rashard Lewis even an adequate defender in Seattle? Or did he learn to become one because winning is the ultimate goal and he?d do anything to win? Funny how that happens.
The point is, teaching defensive schemes is important, and the Knicks can always bring in a ?defensive coordinator? to make that happen. But in the end offense really can win in this league. Ask the Cavs who were shut down all series against the Magic?s half court defense. And the biggest advantage to D?Antoni?s system, I believe, is the ability to put pressure on back peddling defenders and creating space offensively.
The Magic proved that the Cavs? lock-down team defense under the tutelage of ?mastermind? Mike Brown could be shredded from the perimeter in a way that the Knicks soon could exhibit based on the fact that between Danilo Gallinari, Wilson Chandler and Harrington all range between 6-8 and 6-11. They can extend defenses on the perimeter. Obviously, not having a post presence like Dwight Howard is a big difference, but you can see what the Knicks are building here.
So don?t worry about the system. Just hope that Walsh can add the right players who can make the Garden a more inviting place to play then it already is.
metrocard
Legend
Larry Hughes sucks.
You're going to probably hate me after this since Holiday is your boy, I gotta spit the facts.
Mayo can score...is an elite prospect.
Holiday isn't Mayo. Don't compare them.
Why should I be on Evan's bandwagon?
Lawson is average? Do you watch NCAA dude?
Holiday isn't even on my top 5.
I'm not going off mock or hype sites...this is jut from my own analysis.
Rubio
Griffin (I picked Rubio first because PG's make bigger impacts, and Griffin isn't going to be a dominant defensive player or impacting defensve player like Rubio will be, even though he will provide the scoring/points...sometimes defense/passing becomes very valuable in times like in the playoffs or when it counts. Who ever gets Rubio I gurantee will turn into a winning team before whoever gets Griffin. Does Griffin have that ability to make his teammates better? I'm not doubting him, but I'm not going to say its a for sure thing)
James Harden(least raw after these two...Evans, Jennings, Holiday, Thabeet will look raw in the time and will take time to produce, unlike Rose, Love, Beasley, Mayo, etc)
Hasheem Thabeet (rare physical gifts, is coachable, has IMPROVED alot since his freshman year...so their is potential since he has showned he can climb the ladder and get closer to his potential
Johnny Flynn has the ability and the confidence to lead a team...physically gifted and really skilled all around.
Earl Clark - 6"10 SG/SF/PF..can pass the ball, block shots, give you offense/defense....great all around talent, very underrated...his size/skill/ability will make him a very value player, one of the few players in this draft who will contribute right away because of versatility.
Tyreke Evans (born to be a NBA player...Larry Hughes in Washington type production)
Ty Lawson - most sucessful PG of this group...best passing PG of this group...shoots 50% FG 40% 3pt...fastest PG of this group...stands at 6" and almost 200 pounds...very strong body. He can play defense, be a pesk with his ability to intercept passes...most importantly
Ty Lawson is the most PROVEN PG in this draft.
People who doubt him because he doesn't have JRue Holiday's height are the people usually always wrong.
Lawson limits turnovers at the most elite level...more than any player you could find this draft; 6.6 assist to 1.9 turnovers.
Lawson is at a tie with Johnny Flynn for title as 2nd best PG behind Rubio
Stephon Curry would 9th
lastly would be a split between Jennings, Holiday, DeRozen...3 cali dudes with a raw ass game...a lot of things missing.
Phsyically Lawson is a superior PG.
http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre...&year=2009&sort2=DESC&draft=100&pos=1&sort=10
Max Vertical Leap
Lawson: 36.5 inches
Holiday: 34 inches
Conclusion, Lawson gets up higher on an overrated athlete...Holiday is a very good athlete, but nothing compared to Westbrook.
Height/Weight
Lawson: 6"/197 lbs
Holiday: 6"4/199 lbs
Conclusion, Lawson is built like a tank, while Holiday obviously has weight to fill in.
Sprint
Lawson: 3.12
Holiday: 3.21
Lawson is faster, and much faster with the basketball as we seen in the NCAA
Bench
Lawson: 14
Holiday: 6
Its obvious who's stronger, even though I think bencing is overrated.
I could do 600 pushups in 15 minutes. Most guys who bench 300 can't do that.
Lets check out the strength's of Lawson and the strength's of Holiday
Lawson
STRENGTHS:
- Transition play
- True point guard
- Ability to create own shot
- Aggressive slashing mentality
- Ball-handling skills
- Excellent hands
- Ability to get in passing lanes
- Pressure defense
- Potential
- Unselfishness
- Work ethic
- High-level productivity
- Assist to turnover ratio
- Court vision
- Passing skills
- Incredibly quick
- Strength
- 3-point shooting percentages
- Ability to catch and shoot
Holiday
STRENGTHS:
- Executes offensively
- Versatility
- Ability to create own shot
- Change of gears/Hesitation moves
- Ability to fight through screens
- Ability to get in passing lanes
- All-around defense
- Defensive awareness
- Defensive fundamentals
- Lateral quickness
- Off-ball defense
- Versatility to defend multiple positions
- Basketball IQ
- Role-player potential <~~~ EXACTLY
- Unselfishness
- Winning mentality
- Work ethic
- Positional versatility
- Young for class
- Court vision
- Solid passer <~ just solid???
- Ability to finish around basket
- NBA body
- Size for position
- Wingspan
- Excellent rebounder
Who sounds like they fit better in D'Antoni's system?
Lawson's stats
16 ppg
6.6 assist
3 rebs
2.1 stls
1.9 turnovers
50% FG
79% FT
47% 3pt
Keep in mind Lawson has had 3 productive college seasons and is more polished, unlike Holiday and his one mediocre season.
Holiday's stats
8.6 ppg
3.8 rebounds
3.7 assist
2.1 turnovers
1.6 steals
45% FG
72% FT
30% 3pt
Lawson's freshman were was even better than Holiday, who just looks to be a defensive specialist SG...Aaron McKie type player.
Holiday isn't that special to me, which is why I tell you guys he won't be the right pick at 8.
45% FG