We win....Its the Players. We lose, its the coach. smh

[MusketeerX]

LOL, I can't believe you are even debating this. SHows how much you hate this coach and are uwilling to credit him anything! Always going to be great!? He came to Phoenix in his 9th year!

That system you are referring to is D'ants system. It also lead to an INCREASE in FG%. If what you said was true that it was just a virtue of more plays his FG% would have most likely gone down not up. Not to mention career years for Lee, Chandler and Williams. Oh and how about Barbosa and DIaw being shadows of their former selves once leaving D'antoni? I know, it's the system, not the coach who created it! :teeth:

I can't believe you are debating the greatness and natural ability of Steve Nash... Steve excelled in the system because of who he was... not because D'Antoni made him better.

MDA's system is kind to great point guards and harsh on those who are not (ahem, Duhon). But, you would not have seen Raymond Felton becoming Steve Nash...

The Suns made the Western Conference Finals last season w/o D'Ant...

re: Ryan Anderson point

SVG properly spaced the floor. Smart coaching. Better rotations were needed and it wasn't like there was nothing D'Ant could have done... He got outcoached.

I'm just satisfied that at least Toons admitted with a better defensive coach we would have won more games. That all I wanted to hear. Coaching makes a difference... defense matters.

IMO, I think that D'Ant and his system is going to stop up us from ever making it out of the Eastern Conference. I think pure bigs, even if they can't shoot, are necessary sometimes. Boarding is necessary. You can't just accept that you are going to get out rebounded every game. I love Amar'e but he doesn't board... (he had two rebounds last night)... we need a big to make up for that.

D'Ant was starting to turn the corner on Mozgov, but it doesn't detract from the point that he didn't give him consistent, even if small, minutes to get his experience up.

 

[Toons]

back to my original point. its the players more than the coach. If we had a defensive minded centre and a backup pg, we are right in the mix of things. do you agree or disagree?

do you think that with a complete team, our coach is still incapable of winning a playoff series, or even winning it all?

 

[TR1LL10N]

I can't believe you are debating the greatness and natural ability of Steve Nash... Steve excelled in the system because of who he was... not because D'Antoni made him better.

MDA's system is kind to great point guards and harsh on those who are not (ahem, Duhon). But, you would not have seen Raymond Felton becoming Steve Nash...

The Suns made the Western Conference Finals last season w/o D'Ant...

re: Ryan Anderson point

SVG properly spaced the floor. Smart coaching. Better rotations were needed and it wasn't like there was nothing D'Ant could have done... He got outcoached.

I'm just satisfied that at least Toons admitted with a better defensive coach we would have won more games. That all I wanted to hear. Coaching makes a difference... defense matters.

IMO, I think that D'Ant and his system is going to stop up us from ever making it out of the Eastern Conference. I think pure bigs, even if they can't shoot, are necessary sometimes. Boarding is necessary. You can't just accept that you are going to get out rebounded every game. I love Amar'e but he doesn't board... (he had two rebounds last night)... we need a big to make up for that.

D'Ant was starting to turn the corner on Mozgov, but it doesn't detract from the point that he didn't give him consistent, even if small, minutes to get his experience up.

He did not become great till his 9th year and that is indisputable. Further it indisputable that D'ant got career years out of a multitude of players. I know in your world, points, assists, rebounds and FG% are artificial...

BTW, Gentry employed the same offense as D'ant. He was D'ants assistant for 6 years. The Suns were the number one offense in the league and 26th in defense...sound familiar?

 

[MusketeerX]

back to my original point. its the players more than the coach. If we had a defensive minded centre and a backup pg, we are right in the mix of things. do you agree or disagree?

do you think that with a complete team, our coach is still incapable of winning a playoff series, or even winning it all?

My opinion is even with those pieces, though we will be able to go far on talent, because of the system we won't make it out of the Eastern Conference -- we will not get past Miami or the Bulls.

Our players will always be too exhausted and not have the team defense to stop other teams from scoring. And that is assuming D'Antoni would play a D'Andre Jordan type.

Toons -- let me ask you this.

If you think we would have more wins with Tom, why don't you think that same success would not translate to the playoffs?

 

[pat]

MDA did nothing to try to WIN this game.

I agree. He should be fired, because he hates winning. He is trying to become a Hall of Fame coach by intentionally losing games.

 

[MusketeerX]

He did not become great till his 9th year and that is indisputable. Further it indisputable that D'ant got career years out of a multitude of players. I know in your world, points, assists, rebounds and FG% are artificial...

BTW, Gentry employed the same offense as D'ant. He was D'ants assistant for 6 years. The Suns were the number one offense in the league and 26th in defense...sound familiar?

Gentry ran the same system. Steve Nash was always great. He excelled in a system that was meant for point guards... I can't believe you can disrespect Nash like that.

You're telling me that Raymond Felton would become Steve Nash???

 

[MusketeerX]

Nash Stats:

<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="title"><td class="year">Year</td> <td class="team">Team</td> <td>G</td> <td>GS</td> <td>MPG</td> <td>FG%</td> <td>3P%</td> <td>FT%</td> <td>OFF</td> <td>DEF</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>APG</td> <td>SPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>TO</td> <td>PF</td> <td>PPG</td></tr></tbody></table>
<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class=""><td>
</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">01-02</td> <td class="tm">DAL</td> <td>82</td> <td>82</td> <td>34.6</td> <td>0.483</td> <td>0.455</td> <td>0.887</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>2.5</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>7.7</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>2.79</td> <td>2.00</td> <td>17.9</td> </tr> <tr class=""> <td class="yr">02-03</td> <td class="tm">DAL</td> <td>82</td> <td>82</td> <td>33.1</td> <td>0.465</td> <td>0.413</td> <td>0.909</td> <td>0.8</td> <td>2.1</td> <td>2.9</td> <td>7.3</td> <td>1.0</td> <td>0.1</td> <td>2.34</td> <td>1.63</td> <td>17.7</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="odd"><td class="yr">05-06</td> <td class="tm">PHX</td> <td>79</td> <td>79</td> <td>35.4</td> <td>0.512</td> <td>0.439</td> <td>0.921</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>3.6</td> <td>4.2</td> <td>10.5</td> <td>0.8</td> <td>0.2</td> <td>3.49</td> <td>1.52</td> <td>18.8</td> </tr> <tr class=""> <td class="yr">06-07</td> <td class="tm">PHX</td> <td>76</td> <td>76</td> <td>35.3</td> <td>0.532</td> <td>0.455</td> <td>0.899</td> <td>0.4</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>3.5</td> <td>11.6</td> <td>0.8</td> <td>0.1</td> <td>3.78</td> <td>1.54</td> <td>18.6</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">07-08</td> <td class="tm">PHX</td> <td>81</td> <td>81</td> <td>34.3</td> <td>0.504</td> <td>0.470</td> <td>0.906</td> <td>0.3</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>3.5</td> <td>11.1</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>0.1</td> <td>3.64</td> <td>1.40</td> <td>16.9</td></tr></tbody></table>

Yeah he only became great when he was in Phoenix. His assists went up because he was in a system that has more possessions and keeps the ball in his hands more. You will also notice his turnovers went up... BECAUSE HE HAD THE BALL IN HIS HANDS MORE. His percentage going up can be explained by having Amar'e.

Let me also note, however, that MDA is not an effective offensive coach... he is. I'm just saying more possessions are going to push up numbers... good and bad.

 

[TR1LL10N]

Nash Stats:

<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="title"><td class="year">Year</td> <td class="team">Team</td> <td>G</td> <td>GS</td> <td>MPG</td> <td>FG%</td> <td>3P%</td> <td>FT%</td> <td>OFF</td> <td>DEF</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>APG</td> <td>SPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>TO</td> <td>PF</td> <td>PPG</td></tr></tbody></table>
<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class=""><td>
</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">01-02</td> <td class="tm">DAL</td> <td>82</td> <td>82</td> <td>34.6</td> <td>0.483</td> <td>0.455</td> <td>0.887</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>2.5</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>7.7</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>0.0</td> <td>2.79</td> <td>2.00</td> <td>17.9</td> </tr> <tr class=""> <td class="yr">02-03</td> <td class="tm">DAL</td> <td>82</td> <td>82</td> <td>33.1</td> <td>0.465</td> <td>0.413</td> <td>0.909</td> <td>0.8</td> <td>2.1</td> <td>2.9</td> <td>7.3</td> <td>1.0</td> <td>0.1</td> <td>2.34</td> <td>1.63</td> <td>17.7</td></tr></tbody></table>

<table class="playerStatTable careerAvg" border="1" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr class="odd"><td class="yr">05-06</td> <td class="tm">PHX</td> <td>79</td> <td>79</td> <td>35.4</td> <td>0.512</td> <td>0.439</td> <td>0.921</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>3.6</td> <td>4.2</td> <td>10.5</td> <td>0.8</td> <td>0.2</td> <td>3.49</td> <td>1.52</td> <td>18.8</td> </tr> <tr class=""> <td class="yr">06-07</td> <td class="tm">PHX</td> <td>76</td> <td>76</td> <td>35.3</td> <td>0.532</td> <td>0.455</td> <td>0.899</td> <td>0.4</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>3.5</td> <td>11.6</td> <td>0.8</td> <td>0.1</td> <td>3.78</td> <td>1.54</td> <td>18.6</td> </tr> <tr class="odd"> <td class="yr">07-08</td> <td class="tm">PHX</td> <td>81</td> <td>81</td> <td>34.3</td> <td>0.504</td> <td>0.470</td> <td>0.906</td> <td>0.3</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>3.5</td> <td>11.1</td> <td>0.6</td> <td>0.1</td> <td>3.64</td> <td>1.40</td> <td>16.9</td></tr></tbody></table>

Yeah he only became great when he was in Phoenix. His assists went up because he was in a system that has more possessions and keeps the ball in his hands more. You will also notice his turnovers went up... BECAUSE HE HAD THE BALL IN HIS HANDS MORE. His percentage going up can be explained by having Amar'e.

Right everything can be explained excluding the coach unless of course we are talking about something negative. Glad you admitted that Gentry ran his system...that makes 3 WC finals appearances and losses to teams that eventually won the title. Looks a good system to me and one that has the potential to win a chip.

 

[MusketeerX]

Right everything can be explained excluding the coach unless of course we are talking about something negative. Glad you admitted that Gentry ran his system...that makes 3 WC finals appearances and losses to teams that eventually won the title. Looks a good system to me and one that has the potential to win a chip.

Never got them out of the Western Conference Finals, though did it... And, Boston should have won last year if not for Perkins getting injured. Oh and BTW, both those teams were much better defensive teams than the Suns.

And like I said, the system inflates numbers... GOOD and BAD.

Trill, do you not agree with Toons and I that a coach like Tom would give us 5-10 more wins (Toons saying 5?). If you extrapolate that to the rest of the seasons that is 10-20 more wins (most likely more towards the 10 mark).

Don't you think that should say something about our chances in the play-offs?

 

[AmareForPresident]

back to my original point. its the players more than the coach. If we had a defensive minded centre and a backup pg, we are right in the mix of things. do you agree or disagree?

I agree but we would be able to close out games like yesterday and be able to blow out teams like cleveland if we had a good defensive coach.Just look at how good Philly is doing this year with Doug Collins as coach.He stresses defense and there .500.And they pretty much have the same roster that we had last year and we still didn't reach the playoffs.Offense sells tickets,Defense wins Championships.

 

[AmareForPresident]

Right everything can be explained excluding the coach unless of course we are talking about something negative. Glad you admitted that Gentry ran his system...that makes 3 WC finals appearances and losses to teams that eventually won the title. Looks a good system to me and one that has the potential to win a chip.

But Gentry actually taught defense.Amare said that the only coach to ever teach him defense was Gentry.

 

[MusketeerX]

I agree but we would be able to close out games like yesterday and be able to blow out teams like cleveland if we had a good defensive coach.Just look at how good Philly is doing this year with Doug Collins as coach.He stresses defense and there .500.And they pretty much have the same roster that we had last year and we still didn't reach the playoffs.Offense sells tickets,Defense wins Championships.

Yeah, with what Collins is doing with the Sixers is incredibly impressive. Who is their center? Spencer Hawes... We had a legit superstar and they are only one game behind us... See how coaching can make a difference. The only player who plays defense on that team is Andre Igudala...

 

[TR1LL10N]

Never got them out of the Western Conference Finals, though did it... And, Boston should have won last year if not for Perkins getting injured. Oh and BTW, both those teams were much better defensive teams than the Suns.

And like I said, the system inflates numbers... GOOD and BAD.

Trill, do you not agree with Toons and I that a coach like Tom would give us 5-10 more wins (Toons saying 5?). If you extrapolate that to the rest of the seasons that is 10-20 more wins (most likely more towards the 10 mark).

Don't you think that should say something about our chances in the play-offs?

No I don't agree with it and it's quite a simple concept. We are an undersized poor defensive team based on our roster not because we have a coach who doesn't prioritize it over offense. Changing to a coach that would try to slow down the game and rely on defensive stops when we don't have the players for it would be disastrous! Think about relying on an undersized squad to play a half court grind out game! We already got exploited enough in the paint now you want to exacerbate that issue. The fact that we were able to run, inflate the score, dictate the tempo and spread the floor was the only way our squad was capable of winning. (pre-trade)

Further, the system you speak of directly lead to Felton having a borderline all-star year which directly correlates to our wins. If you look at Fleton's production in the beginning of the year when he was learning the system you will see us struggling. Then we became one of the hottest teams in the league and Feltons increased production was evident. Once he suffered an ankle injury and went into a slump we struggled again. Had Felton been putting up the same numbers he did his entire career one can conclude we would not have won as many games.

In conclusion, no I think Thib would have struggled and our record would have been worse had we tried to be a defensive team instead of playing to the rosters strong points. Further, we would have lost games had Felton put up his traditional numbers like the ones under another defensive oriented coach.

 

[MusketeerX]

No I don't agree with it and it's quite a simple concept. We are an undersized poor defensive team based on our roster not because we have a coach who doesn't prioritize it over offense. Changing to a coach that would try to slow down the game and rely on defensive stops when we don't have the players for it would be disastrous! Think about relying on an undersized squad to play a half court grind out game! We already got exploited enough in the paint now you want to exacerbate that issue. The fact that we were able to run, inflate the score, dictate the tempo and spread the floor was the only way our squad was capable of winning. (pre-trade)

Further, the system you speak of directly lead to Felton having a borderline all-star year which directly correlates to our wins. If you look at Fleton's production in the beginning of the year when he was learning the system you will see us struggling. Then we became one of the hottest teams in the league and Feltons increased production was evident. Once he suffered an ankle injury and went into a slump we struggled again. Had Felton been putting up the same numbers he did his entire career one can conclude we would not have won as many games.

In conclusion, no I think Thib would have struggled and our record would have been worse had we tried to be a defensive team instead of playing to the rosters strong points. Further, we would have lost games had Felton put up his traditional numbers like the ones under another defensive oriented coach.

We at least you answered something directly... Then how do you explain the Sixers??? What do they have that we didn't/don't?

Defense?

Re: Felton, his numbers may not have been as impressive, but they would have been better. I would argue that the decrease in his numbers were due to the system tiring him out (which he admitted to)...

 

[TR1LL10N]

But Gentry actually taught defense.Amare said that the only coach to ever teach him defense was Gentry.

26th in the league in defense...26th!

Amare was deflecting and venting at D'ant since they had a falling out. To believe that Amare did not learn defense is absurd. I already showed a video where D'ant is teaching and coaching defense on the Suns. BTW, Amare happily played for D'ant again and Nash said he would too. Melo played for D'ant on Team USA and was happy to play for him too.

 

[MusketeerX]

26th in the league in defense...26th!

Amare was deflecting and venting at D'ant since they had a falling out. To believe that Amare did not learn defense is absurd. I already showed a video where D'ant is teaching and coaching defense on the Suns. BTW, Amare happily played for D'ant again and Nash said he would too. Melo played for D'ant on Team USA and was happy to play for him too.

No he wasn't. He wasn't the only one saying it. Countless other players have said that D'Ant doesn't stress defense. He got in fights with Phoenix's front office b/c of it and ultimately went else where because of it.

 

[TR1LL10N]

We at least you answered something directly... Then how do you explain the Sixers??? What do they have that we didn't/don't?

Defense?

Re: Felton, his numbers may not have been as impressive, but they would have better. I would argue that the decrease in his numbers were due to the system tiring him out (which he admitted to)...

I answer every question directly so stop.

Sixers have defensive players! Iggy! Brand, Young, Hawes, etc...They are 13th in the league in defense!

No one is saying that defense is not important or that you can't win with a defensive system but it depends on the players!

 

[TR1LL10N]

No he wasn't. He wasn't the only one saying it. Countless other players have said that D'Ant doesn't stress defense. He got in fights with Phoenix's front office b/c of it and ultimately went else where because of it.

Not stressing defense is very different then what Amare stated. He said he was not taught defense until Terry Porter. It's crap! He was being attacked for his weakness on defense and deflected...period! Look it up.

BTW, Porter was canned and Gentry was brought in to implement D'ants system! It netted them 54 wins and a trip to WC finals...

 

[MusketeerX]

I answer every question directly so stop.

Sixers have defensive players! Iggy! Brand, Young, Hawes, etc...They are 13th in the league in defense!

No one is saying that defense is not important or that you can't win with a defensive system but it depends on the players!

They also work in a system that plays to their strengths and doesn't press the ball up and down the court...

Exactly, defense! Defense. It will make a team better.... The players we had were to fit in with D'Antoni's system.... Galli was a pretty good one on one defender. Chandler's defense was pretty good, too. We have TD who plays his heart out, and Felton was no slouch....

We didn't have a big, but when your big is Hawes... really? You might as well be without a big... hahaha. I kid. Hawes is a good guy -- horrible player.

Brand is undersized and not a good defender. Young is known for slashing abilities, not his defense.

Edit: Let me take that back... we had two big men. One of which in Randolph could guard 3-4 positions on the floor somewhat effectively. They weren't used.

 

[MusketeerX]

eace:

Not stressing defense is very different then what Amare stated. He said he was not taught defense until Terry Porter. It's crap! He was being attacked for his weakness on defense and deflected...period! Look it up.

BTW, Porter was canned and Gentry was brought in to implement D'ants system! It netted them 54 wins and a trip to WC finals...

And no Finals appearance... Win games, not rings.