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Game Thread: New York Knicks vs Boston Celtics 7:30pm 2/2/2016
- Thread starter rady
- Start date
to me its simple... while it won't get us all the way to the promised land...get a 'real' PG who can get to the basket, hit Me-Lo and the big skinny Caucasian kid in their spots... and we are a better then 500team...
Historically Phil has never really valued the point guard position. I mean Pippen and Harper(Forwards-Guards) ran point during their chip runs at high usage. Mixed with MJ and Kobe running point duties also at high usage.
Hated when he had Payton(HOF), allowed a whole season to go through with Smush Parker. The only real point guards he had were Fisher and Shaw who platooned their role. One of them was used more as a spot up shooter-break defense down later in the clock from ball movement. None of them ever racked up high amounts of assists nor took any high volume of shots.
He could have traded for Bledsoe and Lowry but said Naaaaaaahhhh. Told Larkin to get to packing. Told Felton you're ZIKA. Attempted to trade Calderon last yr but couldn't. Didn't want to give Galloway a guaranteed deal. Had Shumpert and Shved running duties and once again they were guards. Was high on Cameron Payne and Russell but didn't make any moves to acquire them. Passed on Mudiay who is clearly a POINT GUARD.
We'll never know for sure if Phil wanted Melo back or if Dolan stomped and kicked and demanded it as a prerequisite to giving JAX the job.
It didn't matter last year bc we got a lottery back... Doesn't matter this year either bc we don't have a first rounder. If Melo doesn't attract helps this Summer, then we can definitely say having Melo is hurting progress bc it will (or should) prevent next year's team from stinking so badly it earns another top lottery pick.
But... No doubt... Melo is being paid to be the difference in these games (hanging in the balance in the 4th)... And, despite playing some of the best all-around ball of his career... He is just another avg player come crunch time.
You may be right about dolan, but phil took this job knowing all of that about dolan, so this is on him. and he is taking responsibility for all of his moves so far.. so good for him..
Mudiay is trash. He is an unusable trash player in this league right now. We dodged a bullet by not drafting him.
Just to back up the point, Mudiay so far this season is averaging 33% from the floor, 66% from the free throw line, and 26% from 3 point range (on around 2 attempts per game). Plus he averages almost 4 turnovers per game and that is lower than it would be otherwise because he has been benched repeatedly this season.
Just to back up the point, Mudiay so far this season is averaging 33% from the floor, 66% from the free throw line, and 26% from 3 point range (on around 2 attempts per game). Plus he averages almost 4 turnovers per game and that is lower than it would be otherwise because he has been benched repeatedly this season.
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Mudiay is trash. He is an unusable trash player in this league right now. We dodged a bullet by not drafting him.
Just to back up the point, Mudiay so far this season is averaging 33% from the floor, 66% from the free throw line, and 26% from 3 point range (on around 2 attempts per game). Plus he averages almost 4 turnovers per game and that is lower than it would be otherwise because he has been benched repeatedly this season.
Funny reply from you out of all that I typed on Phil and his non regard at the point position...ELOHEL
Mudiay's had some rough patches but there have been a few rookies who've had the same(benchings, DNPs, numbers fluctuating), including (Russell, Okafor, Hezonja, Winslow, Kaminsky). You're boxscore watching and not actually watching the play. Mudiay does turn the ball over(improving since season's start) and jumper is sketchy(knew that already) but he clearly runs a team(leads all rookies in ast) and since returning from injury has been playing more consistently.
There are no bullets dodged because no rookie is really playing exceptionally poor nor are any playing exceptionally well except maybe(Towns and Turner). Booker gaining fast
For the record...
Russell Westbrook shot 39%FG and 27%FG (3pt) his rookie yr. He's now arguably a Top 5 player in the league
Rondo shot 41%FG and 21%FG(3pt) 65%FT his rookie yr. Won a chip...still shaky shot but much improved and many of you wanted him on this team when Melo hinted at trading for him(possibly being a player in his black book)
Also the mighty point guards that have been named dropped here trading for...
Jeff Teague shot 39%FG 22%FG (3pt) his rookie yr and didn't even start(old head Bibby had the job) until his 3rd yr
Brandon Jennings shot 37%FG and 37%FG(3pt) his rookie yr and FG% has been under 40%FG consistently for his career while his 3pt% has declined
Take a hike thinking you can sum up players after half an NBA season. Either watch the games with a closer keener eye or stay under a rock. If I feel this way about our very own Jerian Grant then it applies across the league as a whole.
Jeff Teague shot 39%FG 22%FG (3pt) his rookie yr and didn't even start(old head Bibby had the job) until his 3rd yr
Brandon Jennings shot 37%FG and 37%FG(3pt) his rookie yr and FG% has been under 40%FG consistently for his career while his 3pt% has declined
Take a hike thinking you can sum up players after half an NBA season. Either watch the games with a closer keener eye or stay under a rock. If I feel this way about our very own Jerian Grant then it applies across the league as a whole.
Funny reply from you out of all that I typed on Phil and his non regard at the point position...ELOHEL
Mudiay's had some rough patches but there have been a few rookies who've had the same(benchings, DNPs, numbers fluctuating), including (Russell, Okafor, Hezonja, Winslow, Kaminsky). You're boxscore watching and not actually watching the play. Mudiay does turn the ball over(improving since season's start) and jumper is sketchy(knew that already) but he clearly runs a team(leads all rookies in ast) and since returning from injury has been playing more consistently.
There are no bullets dodged because no rookie is really playing exceptionally poor nor are any playing exceptionally well except maybe(Towns and Turner). Booker gaining fast
For the record...
Russell Westbrook shot 39%FG and 27%FG (3pt) his rookie yr. He's now arguably a Top 5 player in the league
Rondo shot 41%FG and 21%FG(3pt) 65%FT his rookie yr. Won a chip...still shaky shot but much improved and many of you wanted him on this team when Melo hinted at trading for him(possibly being a player in his black book)
That's a weird reply. How about all the guys who had terrible rookie years like that and ended up actually being terrible? I'm sure the number of players with that stat line rookie year who ended up not being able to stick in the NBA is far greater than the number who turned out to be good players. Westbrook and Rondo putting up awful numbers their rookie year isn't why they turned out to be good players. You're turning a warning sign that somebody isn't worth having on your roster into a good thing just because a small number of other guys have turned it around.
For what it's worth, I focus heavily on stats because they are objective. People make a lot of incorrect comments based on small samples because they see a handful of good plays by a player and miss the huge number of bad plays they make. For example, Tiger once called me out on saying that Robin Lopez had been a beast on the boards in a game when the reality was that he had had only 7 rebounds in the game. I had just happened to catch the handful of plays where he looked like he was dominating the glass.
I also watch a lot of basketball on TV and the internet as well. I catch the Nuggets more than a lot of other teams, when possible, because of my interest in Mudiay and I think he stinks. I have no stake in saying Mudiay stinks, since if anything, it makes me look bad because I was in the camp for the Knicks grabbing Mudiay before the draft.
You saying that Towns and Turner being the only 2 rookies who are playing exceptionally well and that we didn't dodge a bullet seems insane. Porzingis at #4 looks like a fantastic pick. Only Towns is better than him. Choosing anyone other than Porzingis at #4 would have been a mistake and the Lakers and Sixers both screwed up by not picking him at #2 and #3. I'm pretty sure every NBA executive in the league would back me up on this.
Also the mighty point guards that have been named dropped here trading for...
Jeff Teague shot 39%FG 22%FG (3pt) his rookie yr and didn't even start(old head Bibby had the job) until his 3rd yr
Brandon Jennings shot 37%FG and 37%FG(3pt) his rookie yr and FG% has been under 40%FG consistently for his career while his 3pt% has declined
Take a hike thinking you can sum up players after half an NBA season. Either watch the games with a closer keener eye or stay under a rock. If I feel this way about our very own Jerian Grant then it applies across the league as a whole.
It's funny. I edited my original post about Mudiay because I thought it was unnecessarily nasty to you and you tell me to 'take a hike' and 'stay under a rock'. Grow up.
It's funny. I edited my original post about Mudiay because I thought it was unnecessarily nasty to you and you tell me to 'take a hike' and 'stay under a rock'. Grow up.
When a player has spent the past 2mos shooting low 40%FG as a big that's not exceptional by any means. His rebounding has tapered off as has his shooting the past 3-4weeks. Towns has 10 more double doubles than him on the season and is far more efficient as a player. Turner based on usage rate and efficiency is playing exceptional a guy who went from coming off the bench to injury to starting to having offense ran through him playing alongside 2 well established players in PG13 and Ellis.
Using the word exceptional for those two players mentioned is no more negligent than using the word trash you describing another.
If you've been catching as many Nuggets games as you say you have and the subject of dodging not dodging bullets well Phil could have had Mudiay and Jokic instead of Grant and Porzingis. Since you value stats as hard facts according to Hollinger's ESPN PER model Jokic and Turner are ranked ahead of Porzingis but they don't have near his usage rate.
It would only makes sense of me to use Point guards who have made a name for themselves in this league who didn't start off well. Are you gonna stand by an assessment philosophy that if said player is putting up poor stats his first yr as a rookie then he's career cooked?
Naaaahh that would never fly. I pulled up 4 point guards really quick, could have added Wall for the argument sakes but they all proved my point nicely. I chose point guards for a reason because that's what Paris mentioned in his post but to be quite frank my list could have grown exponentially if I went outside the position.
When a player has spent the past 2mos shooting low 40%FG as a big that's not exceptional by any means. His rebounding has tapered off as has his shooting the past 3-4weeks. Towns has 10 more double doubles than him on the season and is far more efficient as a player. Turner based on usage rate and efficiency is playing exceptional a guy who went from coming off the bench to injury to starting to having offense ran through him playing alongside 2 well established players in PG13 and Ellis.
Using the word exceptional for those two players mentioned is no more negligent than using the word trash you describing another.
If you've been catching as many Nuggets games as you say you have and the subject of dodging not dodging bullets well Phil could have had Mudiay and Jokic instead of Grant and Porzingis. Since you value stats as hard facts according to Hollinger's ESPN PER model Jokic and Turner are ranked ahead of Porzingis but they don't have near his usage rate.
It would only makes sense of me to use Point guards who have made a name for themselves in this league who didn't start off well. Are you gonna stand by an assessment philosophy that if said player is putting up poor stats his first yr as a rookie then he's career cooked?
Naaaahh that would never fly. I pulled up 4 point guards really quick, could have added Wall for the argument sakes but they all proved my point nicely. I chose point guards for a reason because that's what Paris mentioned in his post but to be quite frank my list could have grown exponentially if I went outside the position.
Towns is better than Porzingis. Agreed. Not sure why you felt the need to argue that point above.
Turner has had 2 good weeks and everyone is drooling over him. Let him do a little more before saying he is better than Porzingis.
I like Jokic and have been unimpressed with Grant so far, so there definitely are scenarios where you could pair Jokic with another top pick and make the case to me that the pairing is better than Porzingis and Grant, but still, I think Mudiay is a team killer to have on the court so far.
Not sure why you are so invested in Mudiay over Porzingis though. It seems like you are almost arguing it as a thought exercise, so I'm good with being done with this debate at this point.
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Towns is better than Porzingis. Agreed. Not sure why you felt the need to argue that point above.
Turner has had 2 good weeks and everyone is drooling over him. Let him do a little more before saying he is better than Porzingis.
I like Jokic and have been unimpressed with Grant so far, so there definitely are scenarios where you could pair Jokic with another top pick and make the case to me that the pairing is better than Porzingis and Grant, but still, I think Mudiay is a team killer to have on the court so far.
Not sure why you are so invested in Mudiay over Porzingis though. It seems like you are almost arguing it as a thought exercise, so I'm good with being done with this debate at this point.
It never was intended for a Mudiay vs Porz debate it was purely showing Phil doesn't really value point guards and Mudiay factored into the examples by default.
Go back and look at the flow of the thread again. It was like you went out of your way to vent frustration(on him) over the lack of success in this team. I mentioned him as the last of the examples, almost as a footnote.
It's also not a given that Towns has to be better/performing better than Porzingis or anyone else in this draft class just because he was selected #1 overall. There have been plenty of misses at #1. I was giving credit for what has been accomplished and more so in their current trend of play.
It never was intended for a Mudiay vs Porz debate it was purely showing Phil doesn't really value point guards and Mudiay factored into the examples by default.
Go back and look at the flow of the thread again. It was like you went out of your way to vent frustration(on him) over the lack of success in this team. I mentioned him as the last of the examples, almost as a footnote.
It's also not a given that Towns has to be better/performing better than Porzingis or anyone else in this draft class just because he was selected #1 overall. There have been plenty of misses at #1. I was giving credit for what has been accomplished and more so in their current trend of play.
Fair enough. Although I will say that I was responding to the last line of one of your posts in this thread where you put POINT GUARD in all caps like that, so to say I derailed this thread is a little dramatic.
Also, I know that I said I was done with it, but I challenge you to make a post where you summarize FG%, 3 point FG%, FT%, and turnovers per game in columns for Mudiay and then all the guys you listed. I'm pretty sure across those 4 categories he might very well be the worst NBA player ever through the first half of a season, but I could be wrong. I would be interested in seeing that data all listed together.
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Mudiay is trash. He is an unusable trash player in this league right now. We dodged a bullet by not drafting him.
Just to back up the point, Mudiay so far this season is averaging 33% from the floor, 66% from the free throw line, and 26% from 3 point range (on around 2 attempts per game). Plus he averages almost 4 turnovers per game and that is lower than it would be otherwise because he has been benched repeatedly this season.
that comment shows me that you just don't watch him play. His numbers were not good to start the season, but the kid has been playing well and it takes time to get those numbers to respectable levels , when it comes to very young players, I look at what they do moreso than their numbers.. guys like westbrook come to mind in his rookie year. If you watch mudiay and come away with him being trash then I guess it explains the thinking around here.... meanwhile knicks fans are dying to get their hands on guys like brandon jennings.. LOL.. go figure...
you do also know that mudiay leads all rookies in assists.. you see we know what he is, he is a PG, Denver doesn't have to figure out if their PG is a PG, the knicks are trying to figure out if their Big man is actually a big man... go figure.
that comment shows me that you just don't watch him play. His numbers were not good to start the season, but the kid has been playing well and it takes time to get those numbers to respectable levels , when it comes to very young players, I look at what they do moreso than their numbers.. guys like westbrook come to mind in his rookie year. If you watch mudiay and come away with him being trash then I guess it explains the thinking around here.... meanwhile knicks fans are dying to get their hands on guys like brandon jennings.. LOL.. go figure...
you do also know that mudiay leads all rookies in assists.. you see we know what he is, he is a PG, Denver doesn't have to figure out if their PG is a PG, the knicks are trying to figure out if their Big man is actually a big man... go figure.
I can't rehash everything I just posted to Broadway. I give up. I do watch him play and hate his game.
My challenge is out there for anyone to find any player who has ever put up worse numbers across FG%, 3 point FG%, FT%, and turnovers per game than Mudiay has done in the first half of this season. I don't care how many assists he has. He is a team killer with how he has played so far.
I know I'm stacking posts sequentially in this thread and I apologize for that, but I have been accused of not watching basketball.
Here, go to this link:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg
These are the player efficiency ratings for NBA PGs this season. Go to page 2. Emmanuel Mudiay is #74 out of 74 qualified PGs. Incidentally, who is #71 out of 74 qualified PGs? Jerian Grant, who's game I have also trashed so far this year.
You don't believe in stats, fine, but don't accuse me of not knowing the game. I know how bad Mudiay has played this year. Historically bad. I have watched him play and get benched behind Jameer Nelson. You still like him, that's cool.
Here, go to this link:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg
These are the player efficiency ratings for NBA PGs this season. Go to page 2. Emmanuel Mudiay is #74 out of 74 qualified PGs. Incidentally, who is #71 out of 74 qualified PGs? Jerian Grant, who's game I have also trashed so far this year.
You don't believe in stats, fine, but don't accuse me of not knowing the game. I know how bad Mudiay has played this year. Historically bad. I have watched him play and get benched behind Jameer Nelson. You still like him, that's cool.
I can't rehash everything I just posted to Broadway. I give up. I do watch him play and hate his game.
My challenge is out there for anyone to find any player who has ever put up worse numbers across FG%, 3 point FG%, FT%, and turnovers per game than Mudiay has done in the first half of this season. I don't care how many assists he has. He is a team killer with how he has played so far.
I gave you 4 players...Westbrook/Rondo/Teague/Jennings those were all rookie yr numbers. And why do the numbers need to be compared to other players in just those 3 categories? No need to pigeon hole players statistically there's so much more to the game than just those areas.
Is Porzingis a power forward or a center? Is his trajectory going to be peak perimeter big or interior big?
Matter of fact tonight WestBrook had 24pts/14ast/19reb guess what I don't care what his FG% or 3pt% or FT% was. Those 14ast and 19reb were just as good as those other statistical categories.
I gave you 4 players...Westbrook/Rondo/Teague/Jennings those were all rookie yr numbers. And why do the numbers need to be compared to other players in just those 3 categories? No need to pigeon hole players statistically there's so much more to the game than just those areas.
Is Porzingis a power forward or a center? Is his trajectory going to be peak perimeter big or interior big?
Matter of fact tonight WestBrook had 24pts/14ast/19reb guess what I don't care what his FG% or 3pt% or FT% was. Those 14ast and 19reb were just as good as those other statistical categories.
Would you care if using Mudiay's assist to turnover ratio of 1.5 that those 14 assists come with 9 turnovers? What about with Mudiay's average FG% that to make those 10 shots that Westbrook made it would have taken Mudiay 30 shots?
I get your point, but you should be able to understand mine. I'm allowed to think Mudiay is trash.
I know I'm stacking posts sequentially in this thread and I apologize for that, but I have been accused of not watching basketball.
Here, go to this link:
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pg
These are the player efficiency ratings for NBA PGs this season. Go to page 2. Emmanuel Mudiay is #74 out of 74 qualified PGs. Incidentally, who is #71 out of 74 qualified PGs? Jerian Grant, who's game I have also trashed so far this year.
You don't believe in stats, fine, but don't accuse me of not knowing the game. I know how bad Mudiay has played this year. Historically bad. I have watched him play and get benched behind Jameer Nelson. You still like him, that's cool.
Those numbers have little to do with the ability to play the position and still have impact. Heck Jason Kidd was hella inefficient and turnover prone throughout his career. Rubio a guy Knick fans sobbed over and over for and hated Kahn for drafting all those Point Guards wanted him as much as Curry. Would you say Rubio as inefficient as he was/is isn't a POINT GUARD?
My list continues to grow and prove to you that numbers don't always tell the story of how good/bad a player is playing or how good they can become. I've already admitted Mudiay hasn't had the best campaign thus far but he's shown lots of great things too.
But this thread was about Porzingis his ability to become dominant and all the things that can get him there. So when bringing up point guards that could help him make sure you keep a close eye on posting peers and make sure they don't mention the problematic ones. For the record Calderon is hella efficient but he sucks<--------SO THERE YOU GO!
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