Trade up using Fields and/or Douglas and our 17th

[nuckles2k2]

From what I hear, in this particular draft it is a good draft to be picking around 17 where we are.

ESPN's Chad Ford, who I trust in terms of the draft, says that there are no Tier-1 stars in this draft, there are 2 Tier-2 guys and then a bunch of guys who could be solid rotation players. He even said that this is a good year to be picking "14, 15, 16 because you will get more value than usual with a very solid rotation guy". We pick 17. I say stand pat.

You can say that every year. I never hear about a strong draft. It depends on what our plans are...if we're gonna wait until the 2013 draft to finally draft a PG then fine...or we can move up, secure our future at PG now, and then continue to build a contending team...now and in the future.

I don't want value at #17, I want a proven player who's shown what he can do, against similarly skilled talent, in high pressure situations. There are bigs to be had currently in the league, there aren't any young point guards to be had...our starting PG is 34 years old, and our next first round draft pick is 2 years away....if not now then when?

 

[KBlack25]

You can say that every year. I never hear about a strong draft. It depends on what our plans are...if we're gonna wait until the 2013 draft to finally draft a PG then fine...or we can move up, secure our future at PG now, and then continue to build a contending team...now and in the future.

I don't want value at #17, I want a proven player who's shown what he can do, against similarly skilled talent, in high pressure situations. There are bigs to be had currently in the league, there aren't any young point guards to be had...our starting PG is 34 years old, and our next first round draft pick is 2 years away....if not now then when?

The problem is apparently the guys you speak of do not exist in this draft, according to Chad Ford.

 

[nuckles2k2]

The problem is apparently the guys you speak of do not exist in this draft, according to Chad Ford.

Kemba Walker and Brandon Knight are two of those guys, according to the eyeballs of hundreds of thousands of people who actually watch the games. Watch basketball and you'll see that instead of relying solely on the reporting of a man who's a part of a crop of reporters who have called the last half dozen drafts "weak."

The Atlanta Falcons didn't think their complementary receiver for Mike Turner and Roddy White was sitting at where they were in the draft....so they moved up to 6th to get him.

If you sit back and try to be cute and try to get a Danny Granger or Jrue Holiday at 17, you could end up picking up a Kevin Seraphin or Oleksiy Pecherov.

 

[KBlack25]

Kemba Walker and Brandon Knight are two of those guys, according to the eyeballs of hundreds of thousands of people who actually watch the games. Watch basketball and you'll see that instead of relying solely on the reporting of a man who's a part of a crop of reporters who have called the last half dozen drafts "weak."

The Atlanta Falcons didn't think their complementary receiver for Mike Turner and Roddy White was sitting at where they were in the draft....so they moved up to 6th to get him.

If you sit back and try to be cute and try to get a Danny Granger or Jrue Holiday at 17, you could end up picking up a Kevin Seraphin or Oleksiy Pecherov.

Okay - but to get Walker or Knight we would have to move into the top 5, which I don't see as realistic...

And to compare trading up for Walker or Knight to trading up to getting Julio Jones, who put on a ****ing show at the combine, is an absurd analogy...and even to do that, the Falcons gutted their future draft to do so, a luxury we don't have.

 

[nuckles2k2]

To argue that those guys don't exist is to say that Kemba didn't play well against Big East competition, Brandon Knight didn't play well against SEC competition, and Kendall Marshal didn't turn UNC's season around as soon as he was inserted into the starting lineup against ACC competition.

Who am I gonna believe? My lying eyes and reality or a reporter who claims that every draft is weak?

If you need a PG in this draft...there are ones available...you gotta move up to get em tho, simple as that.

 

[nuckles2k2]

Okay - but to get Walker or Knight we would have to move into the top 5, which I don't see as realistic...

And to compare trading up for Walker or Knight to trading up to getting Julio Jones, who put on a ****ing show at the combine, is an absurd analogy...and even to do that, the Falcons gutted their future draft to do so, a luxury we don't have.

Jones was still a position of need, simple as that. And if Minny is willing to trade away their pick, we have to at least talk to them about it. Just saying that moving up into the top 5 being unrealistic isn't enough. You have to contact teams that might not want a first rounder cap hold on their books and see if a deal can be worked out.

 

[KBlack25]

To argue that those guys don't exist is to say that Kemba didn't play well against Big East competition, Brandon Knight didn't play well against SEC competition, and Kendall Marshal didn't turn UNC's season around as soon as he was inserted into the starting lineup against ACC competition.

Who am I gonna believe? My lying eyes and reality or a reporter who claims that every draft is weak?

If you need a PG in this draft...there are ones available...you gotta move up to get em tho, simple as that.

Every single scouting report/article I have read has said this draft is weak...

We would have to give up more than Fields and the 17th to get to where Kemba Walker is going to go...

I honestly think there will be guys available at 17 who can come in and help us immediately - but there are no true superstars in this draft, MAYBE a couple of All-Stars.

 

[KBlack25]

Jones was still a position of need, simple as that. And if Minny is willing to trade away their pick, we have to at least talk to them about it. Just saying that moving up into the top 5 being unrealistic isn't enough. You have to contact teams that might not want a first rounder cap hold on their books and see if a deal can be worked out.

Dude, nobody is saying you don't contact the TWolves to do it, of course you do, Donnie wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't...but I think the asking price is going to be too much, especially in light of the limited number of tradeable assets we have right now, and in light of the fact that at 17 there should be a couple of guys that can help us now.

 

[nuckles2k2]

Plus I don't see Walker and Knight both being top 5, Cleveland isn't taking another PG with their 4th pick...see if it's available and for how much. Utah may or may not take a PG with Devin there. If Toronto passes up on one...we know Washington doesn't need another PG.

Too many possibilities, and not much being said other than wide sweeping generalities on your part.

 

[KBlack25]

Plus I don't see Walker and Knight both being top 5, Cleveland isn't taking another PG with their 4th pick...see if it's available and for how much. Utah may or may not take a PG with Devin there. If Toronto passes up on one...we know Washington doesn't need another PG.

Too many possibilities, and not much being said other than wide sweeping generalities on your part.

To reiterate:

Of course you ask if the pick is available and what the price is. That's the GM's job.

But this draft in particular has a ton of value where we are picking, and nobody outside of Kyrie Irving that is really a sure thing. If Cleveland takes Derrick Williams first (I suspect they might) I try like hell to move into the #2 spot (or, in the alternative, snag Rubio for the #17 pick as the TWolves get Irving)...but we can't just assume teams will give up their picks for nothing or a low cost. And I'm not really too keen on giving up our first team All-Rookie, our only first round pick between this year and next, and possibly our young back-up PG for a guy that isn't a sure thing...

This draft is full of rotation guys, guys that can help...but we can get someone at 17 that can help...

 

[nuckles2k2]

To reiterate:

Of course you ask if the pick is available and what the price is. That's the GM's job.

But this draft in particular has a ton of value where we are picking, and nobody outside of Kyrie Irving that is really a sure thing. If Cleveland takes Derrick Williams first (I suspect they might) I try like hell to move into the #2 spot (or, in the alternative, snag Rubio for the #17 pick as the TWolves get Irving)...but we can't just assume teams will give up their picks for nothing or a low cost. And I'm not really too keen on giving up our first team All-Rookie, our only first round pick between this year and next, and possibly our young back-up PG for a guy that isn't a sure thing...

This draft is full of rotation guys, guys that can help...but we can get someone at 17 that can help...

We can get someone at 17 that can help, but there's no one that would put us over the top. So we're helping a first round exit team get to the second round...conference finals at best...only to then lose our 35 year old PG...not have anyone to take his place (Toney Douglas is as much a point guard as Marcus Thornton is...when people will realize this...I dunno) and we'll have our next opportunity to draft a PG in 2013, who'll then be entering his rookie season, 3 years into the Melo and STAT era, both with only 2 years left on the books and we only have Melo's Bird Rights.

So I say...try to move up in the draft, and grab whoever we can at the PG spot. Kyrie is getting the most hype...yes....but this draft is top heavy, not barren. Chances are you're not getting a Jrue @ 17, Teague @ 19, or Rondo @ 21, etc. So you move your 1st team All-Rookie player, you're backup "PG" who's really a shooting guard in a point guard's body, and your #17 pick for someone who's actually a point guard and can be that going forward. There's no guarantee that you can, but I don't understand being satisfied at 17 and saying "oh there's value there".....what sort of value? I'm sure Charlotte is happy with getting DJ @ #9 in 2008, and the Spurs love the value they got at 26 with George Hill, but neither of those guys are what the Thunder got at #4 in Westbrook. Oh and that was a "weak" draft too. A draft that produced Rose, Westbrook, Love, Beasly, Augustin, Mayo, Gordon, Brook Lopez, Javale, Ibaka Flacka Flame, Batum, George Hill, Goran Dragic, Bill Walker, Mbah a Moute, CDR, Omir Asik, Bradon Rush, Roy Hibbert, and more...was "weak." It was weak until it just wasn't. I stopped putting stock into this "weak draft" stuff years ago, just watch as many college games as you can and see for yourself instead of relying on "experts."

 

[KBlack25]

We can get someone at 17 that can help, but there's no one that would put us over the top. So we're helping a first round exit team get to the second round...conference finals at best...only to then lose our 35 year old PG...not have anyone to take his place (Toney Douglas is as much a point guard as Marcus Thornton is...when people will realize this...I dunno) and we'll have our next opportunity to draft a PG in 2013, who'll then be entering his rookie season, 3 years into the Melo and STAT era, both with only 2 years left on the books and we only have Melo's Bird Rights.

So I say...try to move up in the draft, and grab whoever we can at the PG spot. Kyrie is getting the most hype...yes....but this draft is top heavy, not barren. Chances are you're not getting a Jrue @ 17, Teague @ 19, or Rondo @ 21, etc. So you move your 1st team All-Rookie player, you're backup "PG" who's really a shooting guard in a point guard's body, and your #17 pick for someone who's actually a point guard and can be that going forward. There's no guarantee that you can, but I don't understand being satisfied at 17 and saying "oh there's value there".....what sort of value? I'm sure Charlotte is happy with getting DJ @ #9 in 2008, and the Spurs love the value they got at 26 with George Hill, but neither of those guys are what the Thunder got at #4 in Westbrook. Oh and that was a "weak" draft too. A draft that produced Rose, Westbrook, Love, Beasly, Augustin, Mayo, Gordon, Brook Lopez, Javale, Ibaka Flacka Flame, Batum, George Hill, Goran Dragic, Bill Walker, Mbah a Moute, CDR, Omir Asik, Bradon Rush, Roy Hibbert, and more...was "weak." It was weak until it just wasn't. I stopped putting stock into this "weak draft" stuff years ago, just watch as many college games as you can and see for yourself instead of relying on "experts."

We will have STAT's Bird Rights too, if they work the same way.

I didn't see many people calling the 2008 draft weak either.

What I'm saying is, from what I hear/see from many much more in the know (people who do this for a living), that in the 14, 15, 16, 17 range there are much better players than are usually there in most years...but not as many good top 10 players. You say we won't get anyone at 17 that will put us over the top...we won't get anybody at #1, especially if we lose Fields and Douglas, that puts us over the top.

I'd rather try and get some roster continuity with the guys we have than guy this team, again, to move up to maybe get a good, but flawed, Kemba Walker. The roster needs help beyond PG anyway, you say we have Billups like the plan isn't to move his $14 mil expiring mid-season for somebody. We won't be left holding the bag on Billups, I can guarantee that.

 

[Knicksfansince92]

TimberWolves are rumored to want to trade their lottery Pick this year, maybe we get them into taking Fields and Walker since they want a SG. With their Pick I think we take Kanter ( Turkish Kid ) I've been watching the combine and he's doing pretty good and also is a BANGER with an outside game defiantly needs some work but can be a Mehmet Okur type with better defense

 

[LJ4ptplay]

TimberWolves are rumored to want to trade their lottery Pick this year, maybe we get them into taking Fields and Walker since they want a SG. With their Pick I think we take Kanter ( Turkish Kid ) I've been watching the combine and he's doing pretty good and also is a BANGER with an outside game defiantly needs some work but can be a Mehmet Okur type with better defense

Are you suggesting Fields + Walker can get us the 2nd pick in the draft?

 

[Knicksfansince92]

Are you suggesting Fields + Walker can get us the 2nd pick in the draft?

I forgot to add our 1st rounder

 

[LJ4ptplay]

I forgot to add our 1st rounder

Even with our 1st. I don't think Minny would give the 2nd overall pick for that.

 

[moneyg]

Even with our 1st. I don't think Minny would give the 2nd overall pick for that.

agreed. there will be many better deals if that was the case.. minny lookin for vetern help.. not two more guards...

 

[New New York]

Ok, I'm basically tracking the concensus and it seems the theme is...

"Trade up for who"

Whoever we get,

1. Some feel has to be a target
2. Some feel has to be almost a gaurantee

And some feel TD and Fields should stay because of potential, and cheap contracts.

The best way I can put how I feel is this:

We need so much. We cant get it all at once, via trade (too expensive), or even hope wehave a diamond in the rough. We also have no pick next year.

There is only one way towards the winning formula (Younger-cheaper-better)...

The draft. That's it, that's our only way.

We cannot afford to waste this pick. It has to be MAXIMIZED from the talent stand point. Which means the odds are greater the higher the pick whoever that is...

Basically we need a cheap, productive, starter. And most glarringly he is eaither a BIG or PG.

I see no other way, nor no less of a gamble than trading what limited assets we have (Fields, TD, Turiaf, Routins, or Balkman) to help us at the least acquire the caliber player that actually helps our core. This is the only way.

By trading up we are essentially saying, we could take a chance at 17 and still have one or more of the above, none of whom are real starters tha make an impact

Or we can add to our odds of acquiring a starter by sacrificng.

And we can still buy a late round pick for depth and another shot at finding a diamond.

Whatdya say?

I wholeheartedly agree with your formula for building a winner, OKC perfected this and Portland has done well w it as well

Now like you said with no pick next year means this year's pick has to be maximized....second point you and I agree on whole heartedly


Now the draft is far from an exact science (which is what scares me) in theory (and often in reality) you can end up with just a good a player if not better at the 17th spot as you do at the latter part of the lottery.

17 is right smack in the middle of the draft, projected lottery players slip who shouldnt and you end up with a Ty Lawson,Darren Collinson,Danny Granger or a Wilson Chandler.

TD and the 17th I can see doing....Feilds and the 17th is where it becomes risky....now how far up are we talking here too is a major factor

I'd give up both of them and 17th for a top 3, but lets be realistic no team is doing us that favor....but Fields and 17th would have to crack us in the top 5 (and even then it would be contigient on what player was available).

Don't get me wrong I see Feilds ending up a Matt Barnes/Doug Christie type (far from a star) but he is our only SG and I get your logic that we are losing a starter to gain one, but Jordan Hill, Evans, Thabeet and scores of others have proven a projected lottery pick is a bonafied starter.

I do like the logic of your proposal if there is a player we have in mind, years ago we almost did such a trade to move up to get Russell Westbrook by trying to trade David Lee, people on this site felt we dodged a bullet...fast forward 3 years and it is safe to say our team would be significantly better had this trade gone down....so again my point if there is a player who for sure our coaching staff feels can contribute right away, then I suppose

 

[Toons]

But that justs it, TD or Fields can't take us to the next level either. So this move especially for a quality big then maybe a pg is for the future. 2012 and beyond

We will need pieces regardless and as we've seen its more likely to acquire a shooter/ back up than a starting C or Pg

So once we realize next season is another throw away or just gaining experience maybe in a fisrt or second round playoff series, isn't it better to get that big the experience than a back up who might not be here?

its not fair to say that fields or td will not take us to the next level. Fields was in the running for rookie of the year, and would have had a strong case if blake griffin was not allowed to be a part of it (which i feel is unfair because he had a whole year to learn the nba and practice with his team for some months). Fields is our answer at the 2 spot. He has proven that he can handle the nba in his rookie year. Douglas has also proven to be the best backup pg option available right now as we have already committed to billups' contract. our immediate need is to strengthen the front court and get turiaf 100% to backup amare. Turiaf is not a centre and shouldnt play the 5.

we have had success late in many drafts, and have fudged drafts when we had good picks. i feel more easy with less expectation with the 17th

 

[Red]

its not fair to say that fields or td will not take us to the next level. Fields was in the running for rookie of the year, and would have had a strong case if blake griffin was not allowed to be a part of it (which i feel is unfair because he had a whole year to learn the nba and practice with his team for some months). Fields is our answer at the 2 spot. He has proven that he can handle the nba in his rookie year. Douglas has also proven to be the best backup pg option available right now as we have already committed to billups' contract. our immediate need is to strengthen the front court and get turiaf 100% to backup amare. Turiaf is not a centre and shouldnt play the 5.

we have had success late in many drafts, and have fudged drafts when we had good picks. i feel more easy with less expectation with the 17th

Fields avg less than 2pts per in the playoffs (1.8), and 9.7 in the reg season. And that's our answer at the 2? Huh?

Fields would only be the "answer" IF we had a valid Big, then his short-comings wouldn't matter as much. Therefore he is not only replacable if necessary (as is TD) it is well worth sacrificing their contributions for Serviceable Size.

A Center has to be prioritized over role playing wing shooters. They are more expensive and less available, not to mention are more conducive to success.

Landry Fields is a natural 3 NOT a 2- this is a D'Antoni move. In a "normal" system, on a playoff team with positions filled Fields is putting up BENCH numbers, not starter numbers- and that's accounting for his Rebound stats influenced by extra possessions and long rebounds from extra three point shots. And he didn't fit in well with our core Stat & Melo...why?

Because with those two what's needed, NEEDED, is a knock down shooter on the perimeter for kick outs, not a garbage man. That role is reserved for a Center, why?

Because a Center will and should impact the game more than a 9.6 scoring rebounding SG. The center who avg's 9.6 like fields, and rebounds, plays defense to the tune of altering shots, picking up fouls, and intimidating. Setting screens also. That has to be prioritized over a back up.

Who's more desireable a Bogens, brewer, Sefolosha type
-or-
A Kendrik Perkins, Javele McGee type?

Its about priority. Fields and TD are useful but should not be kept if a quality big can be had for them. Its the cart before the horse.

Now I'm not saying a big is available, but I propose IF the opportunity arises we have to take that shot in hopes that we can find replacemets for them- history says we can.