We're Better Without N8!

Kiyaman

Legend
Never said Nate was the cause of them being under .500.

I don't like seeing guys joke around when the team is losing...

Fact is: maybe if Nate wasn't joking around, maybe if Nate wasn't totally immature, maybe if Nate acted like they've won a basketball game before, D'Antoni would put him in the game.

Nate not being in the rotation is something that you claim he has no control over, I call bullshit...fact is NATE WAS IN THE ROTATION AT ONE POINT THIS YEAR! HE'S DONE SOMETHING, AT PRACTICE, ON THE BENCH, SOMETHING TO NOT BE GOOD ENOUGH TO KEEP HIS SPOT...Nate not getting minutes is his own damn fault, and if he acted more mature in the locker room, maybe he would get his minutes. Maybe if he worked on the holes in his game (the fact that he's a 5'9 guy who can't pass or ball handle), and spent less time worrying about what his celebration would be after someone else hits a big shot, he'd earn his way in...

You can cite 1-5 when Nate had a sprain, fine. But what about the games where we've beaten the Hawks and the Suns (record-wise the two best teams in the league), and Nate did not contribute significantly? You have to consider not just the games where Nate was injured, but how well this team has played WITHOUT Nate in the lineup...


You still dont get it.....the small rotation of players we used last season to get into the playoff race were the same small rotation of players we won the last 3 games, accept for replacing Nate with Larry Hughes.
Look at Larry Hughes 12 year career and u will see the last time he performed consistently like he did in our 3 straight wins (high assist, high steals, and a high percentage shooting) was when he was in his final contract season with the Washington Wizards.

I dont know if u are aware of this but Nate cursed Dantoni out in two games while bringing the ball down court. For what? for telling the media Duhon need to be rested the next 4 to 6 games and will be replaced by Larry Hughes who did not have a clue about his new teammates....so the Knicks went on a long losing streak with Larry Hughes as the PG.

Here's the icing.....after Larry Hughes performance in his first Knick game, the next day Gallo announced that his injury got worst and he is going to Italy to have the surgery. The next game was without Duhon & Gallo and a raving mad Nate Robinson screaming constantly at coach Dantoni.

All hope of making the playoffs in Nate's (and Lee's) ending contract season went out the window so the Knicks could become a lottery team.
The resigning of Nate & Lee the week before training-camp did not give u a clue...
 

Kiyaman

Legend
"Sources said Robinson is more than upset with how things are playing out with Knicks' coach Mike D'Antoni and would welcome a move to the right situation. Whether that's Chicago or not remains to be seen. Robinson's first desire is to stay in New York, as he views the Knicks as his dream situation, however his falling out with D'Antoni and the Knicks' desire to add pieces to a squad starting to put some things together is real, making reconciliation unlikely. It remains to be seen how aggressively the Knicks will get after a trade, but it is clear the Knicks are talking and listening and if the right situation falls their way they are ready to move." - hoopsworld


When talk of a Knick trade with Chicago showed on NBA TV......my first thought was Nate Robinson is needed in Chicago to replace the missing Ben Gordon.
All the talk about Harrington made little sense with a healthy Deng adding 34 mpg. Noah is a young hustling PF/C with a Ben Gordon or Nate Robinson in their rotation.
The Chicago Bulls success depended on Ben Gordon closing the 4th quarter the last 5 seasons. Which Nate's speed and combo-guard experience could do.
 

KBlack25

Starter
You still dont get it.....the small rotation of players we used last season to get into the playoff race were the same small rotation of players we won the last 3 games, accept for replacing Nate with Larry Hughes.

And your point is?

Kiyaman said:
Look at Larry Hughes 12 year career and u will see the last time he performed consistently like he did in our 3 straight wins (high assist, high steals, and a high percentage shooting) was when he was in his final contract season with the Washington Wizards.

So what?

Kiyaman said:
I dont know if u are aware of this but Nate cursed Dantoni out in two games while bringing the ball down court. For what? for telling the media Duhon need to be rested the next 4 to 6 games and will be replaced by Larry Hughes who did not have a clue about his new teammates....so the Knicks went on a long losing streak with Larry Hughes as the PG.

Yes, but now that he HAS a clue about his CURRENT teammates, your point becomes moot. Circumstances have changed.

Kiyaman said:
Here's the icing.....
Kiyaman said:
after Larry Hughes performance in his first Knick game, the next day Gallo announced that his injury got worst and he is going to Italy to have the surgery. The next game was without Duhon & Gallo and a raving mad Nate Robinson screaming constantly at coach Dantoni.

So the fact that Nate Robinson got raving mad is supposed to make me want him to play? If anything, the fact that he acted like a lunatic makes me want him on the floor less...

I said it earlier in this thread, and I'll say it again...

Knicks record when Nate Robinson plays more than 12 minutes: 0-9
Knicks record when Nate Robinson is injured or plays 12 minutes or less (including DNP): 7-6

Talk about your conspiracies all you want, those are the numbers, and they aren't lying.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
Nate is our only consistent scoring-guard

I been waiting for someone to add that Nate has been our best SG on this Knick Team since we had the Marbury & Francis tandem.

We added SG Larry Hughes to the team on the deadline however, the NBA league know Hughes have never been a scorer in his 12 years, but a dangerous weapon on defense.

Nate & Hughes are the only SG on the Knicks.
Why are both coming off the bench and being DNP this season?
Is it b/c PG-Duhon dont want either to start with him?
Or was Duhon consistent bad performance (before trade talks) done on purpose b/c he wanted one of the SG to "START" with him?

So many questions about the Knicks 7-15 record, and no real answers to none......
 

Kiyaman

Legend
KBlack.....the best response I could give u for your HATE is when players or coaches perform like they are "TANKING" a game or season there is no LUV shown back
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
I been waiting for someone to add that Nate has been our best SG on this Knick Team since we had the Marbury & Francis tandem.

We added SG Larry Hughes to the team on the deadline however, the NBA league know Hughes have never been a scorer in his 12 years, but a dangerous weapon on defense.

Nate & Hughes are the only SG on the Knicks.
Why are both coming off the bench and being DNP this season?
Is it b/c PG-Duhon dont want either to start with him?
Or was Duhon consistent bad performance (before trade talks) done on purpose b/c he wanted one of the SG to "START" with him?

So many questions about the Knicks 7-15 record, and no real answers to none......

Bottom line is that we are playing our best ball all season so the only reason to play Nate would be for the N8 fans. He is an undersized SG, liability on D and is immature in the worst possible way. I like his athleticism, ability to score in bunches and heart but in all honesty I believe he is better suited for another team. I don't hate N8, I just love the Knicks more! We are clearly a better team now that the rotation has been shrunk and set. Players know their roles, have gotten into a rhythm and are comfortable playing with other players in the smaller rotation.
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
I don't hate N8, I just love the Knicks more! We are clearly a better team now that the rotation has been shrunk and set. Players know their roles, have gotten into a rhythm and are comfortable playing with other players in the smaller rotation.

I'm a big Nate fan but I have to agree with you here. My question would now be... what happens when Curry comes back? Surely he would disrupt the chemistry going on right? They (coachiing staff + Walsh) definitely want Curry to show off what he's got for other GMs.
 

Kiyaman

Legend
Bottom line is that we are playing our best ball all season so the only reason to play Nate would be for the N8 fans. He is an undersized SG, liability on D and is immature in the worst possible way. I like his athleticism, ability to score in bunches and heart but in all honesty I believe he is better suited for another team. I don't hate N8, I just love the Knicks more! We are clearly a better team now that the rotation has been shrunk and set. Players know their roles, have gotten into a rhythm and are comfortable playing with other players in the smaller rotation.


How easy we have forgotten
It was Nate energy off the bench which gave that lineup chemistry to Jell together.

KBlack and Turner......just a theory of mind, what do u pay somebody back for "TANKING" your season? a 5-15 record

Knicks record in Games in which Nate Robinson has played more than 12 minutes:
0-9
Knicks record in games in which Nate Robinson has been injured or played 12 minutes or less (includes DNP):
7-6

Is that after Dantoni Tank the season
 

mafra

Legend
I'm a big Nate fan but I have to agree with you here. My question would now be... what happens when Curry comes back? Surely he would disrupt the chemistry going on right? They (coachiing staff + Walsh) definitely want Curry to show off what he's got for other GMs.

This just shows you how clueless Walsh & D'ant are.... NOBODY on this planet is going to take Eddie Curry of our hands. Who in their right mind is going to take EC and pay him 10 million dollars next year. 10 mil for what? We could play him 40 minutes a game it wont matter.

Same with Jeffries. We just play these guys for some desperate hope some sucker will take these 2 off our hands. It aint happening.
 

HardFoul

Banned
0-9 when Nate plays significant time
7-6 when he doesn't.


Below is where this faggot, homo, cacksucker, got this stat from. He takes the info. from the article that is relevant to his circular, flawed thought mechanisms. What she does not mention, though, is that the writer concludes that other players, like Douglass and Duhon, actually have a worse on the court effect on Knicks winning, as per the plus minus stats, so far.

Beck's friend (an expert basketball analyst) states that the sample conspiracy theorists are using: 0-9, which includes three lost overtime games, is too small and skews things to make it appear that Nate is the cause of our losses. If we had won those three OT games he says it would look a lot different.

I'm sure that Dr. Kblack25 can't argue this empirical data from a trained researcher.


Beck's expert attributes the 3 wins to the knicks shooting 44.6% from three, after having shot 31.8%.




By Howard Beck, New York Times:

Coach Mike D’Antoni benched Nate Robinson last week and the Knicks promptly won three straight games. Cause and effect? It was hard to say. But digging a little deeper, the findings were compelling.
A scan of the first 22 games showed that the Knicks were 0-9 when Robinson played 19 minutes or more, and 7-6 when he played 12 minutes or less (including 10 games in which he did not play).
That seemed significant enough.



But realizing that looks, and statistics, can be deceiving, I reached out to Kevin Pelton, an analyst for Basketball Prospectus. He is also an unabashed Robinson fan (both attended the University of Washington), but Pelton’s spreadsheet does not include a Huskies bump.


In an e-mail message, Pelton noted that the plus-minus data — the relative scoring difference when Robinson is in the game — somewhat contradicts the above won-lost figures.



Pelton writes:


“According to BasketballValue.com, the Knicks have been outscored by 5.2 points per 100 possessions (a little longer than the typical up-tempo New York game, which features about 94 of them) when Robinson is on the court. When he’s on the bench, they have been slightly better, getting outscored by 3.2 points per 100 possessions.


“The difference is not as striking as the 0-9 stat, nor is it anywhere near the worst on the team or even in the backcourt. For example, New York is 6.2 points worse per 100 possessions when the starting point guard, Chris Duhon, plays; and the rookie Toney Douglas makes the team a full 8.2 points worse per 100 possessions.


“Mike D’Antoni has credited Douglas’s defensive energy for the team playing better since he took on Robinson’s playing time, but the team actually defends better with Robinson on the floor.


What explains this discrepancy between the 0-9 stat and the plus-minus data? It looks like just one of those things that show up when we deal with small samples. The record with Robinson might look different if the Knicks had won any of the three overtime games they lost with him in the lineup.”
Pelton also suggests that the won-lost breakdown based on Robinson’s minutes is arbitrary. For instance, the Knicks were a plus-7 during the 12 minutes Robinson played in a Nov. 18 victory over Indiana. Would the Knicks have lost the game had Robinson played a few minutes more?
“It seems hard to believe,” Pelton writes.


He concludes:

“None of this is to necessarily say D’Antoni made a mistake in benching Robinson. Besides the fact that Douglas is a larger part of the team’s future, plus-minus numbers are still unreliable this early in the season. That goes double, however, for reading too much into the Knicks’ 3-1 record over the four games since Robinson was removed from the rotation. That seems much more attributable to the fact that New York has made 44.6 percent of its 3-pointers in that span after hitting them at a 31.8 percent clip previously than it does to Robinson sitting on the bench.”
 
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donchris

Next season, keep waiting
The fact that the Knicks are playing good ball and winning a few games and that Robinson isn't playing are not related. Does anyone really think that now that Nate isn't playing we can start winning games? Knicks are not better without Nate. At least not necessarily. Robinson brings alot of energy off of the bench but his antics have grown tiresome.

The likely hood of a Nate trade in my view is 50/50 at best. Since Walsh wont take on new contracts past this year it doesn't seem likely that Nate will be traded unless he can package Curry (he can't) or Jeffries along with Nate.
 

SSj4Wingzero

All Star
I'm not so sure how much it has to do with us winning (Nate's benching that is) but I figure if we're still winning...why screw with whatever's been working?

Duhon seems to be playing well as of late, oddly enough.
 

CoolClyde

Moderator
Riding The Pine Sucks Ass

Knicks are playing well now, with tight 8-man rotation, but how long with this last, with 40 minutes plus for Poo-hon each game? The team went wild with crazy 3-pointers tonite vs N.O., the question is, can the Knicks be a lights-out shooting team for 82 games? Will Harrington, Hughes and Duhon last the whole season at this level, or will they peter out like Poo-hon did last year?

How is Jordan Hill supposed to represent our future with DNP's every night? Good pick with #8, Donnie! What if we experience injuries to the great 8, then we have some rusty players coming in to save the day?

I remember the Knicks had Anthony Bonner in Pat Riley days ('93-'94), the man was a force of energy, and helped get the Knicks to the playoffs with his voracious defense and offensive stamina. Once in the playoffs, Riley went to a small rotation, and never used Bonner in playoffs. I felt this was a mistake, just like I feel this current 8-man rotation (+ Curry sauce) is a mistake.

Benching N8 may eventually bite No-D'Antoni in the ass. Mr. Pringles is looking good now, but his chips will eventually fall where they lie (whatever that means). Play N8! Play Hill! Play Darko! Play Douglas!
 

TunerAddict

Starter
Shorter rotations are more successful, so I'm fully down with playing who the coach thinks help us the most...

JJ may not put up big numbers, but he has a phenomenal +/- ranking every game we win.
 

KBlack25

Starter
Okay...so let's say they won ALL THREE OT games with Nate in the lineup...the split would then be:

3-6 when he plays
8-6 when he doesn't

I didn't get that stat from anywhere, I got it myself...but let's look at this...

Games in which NATE ROBINSON PLAYS and shoots less than 10 times:

3-4

Games in which NATE ROBINSON PLAYS and shoots 10 times or more:

0-6

At the end of the day, no matter how you break down the stats, this team is worse when Nate is asked to do the bulk of the work.

A quote from the conclusion quoted by HardFoul...in parenthesis in bold are my comments:

“None of this is to necessarily say D’Antoni made a mistake in benching Robinson (so, the report says it's possible that D'Antoni did NOT make a mistake). Besides the fact that Douglas is a larger part of the team’s future, plus-minus numbers are still unreliable this early in the season (That means they are unreliable on both sides). That goes double, however, for reading too much into the Knicks’ 3-1 record over the four games since Robinson was removed from the rotation (3-1 when removed from the lineup, but not a mention of when Nate isn't asked to do much). That seems much more attributable to the fact that New York has made 44.6 percent of its 3-pointers in that span after hitting them at a 31.8 percent clip previously than it does to Robinson sitting on the bench (isn't the higher 3-point rate possibly due to Nate not taking so many shots and shooting at such a low clip? Couldn't his benching be at least partially the reason for having a higher 3-point rate?).”
 
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