Do It!!!!!

LJ4ptplay

Starter
umm, u do know he shoots 45% from the field? most of them highly contested shots?
who on dever has to be doubled to get melo open?
amare, and felton are the only untouchables in this trade.

Amare, Melo, Felton better than Bosh, Lebron, Wade

Whoa. You really think Felton, Melo and Amare are better than Bosh, Lebron and Wade?!?

There are going to be a lot of disappointed fans when Melo gets here. He's not as good as some fans believe he is. I watched almost every Nugget game last year (didn't get League Pass and live in CO). Don't get me wrong, he is an amazing offensive talent, that can get hot and drop 50, but he also has, about 1 out of every 5 or 6 games, a terrible game that costs his team a win where he will go 4-20 and 0-3 from 3 point.

Get him here, that's fine. But don't expect us to suddenly be world beaters because Melo is here. Not to mention, him and Amare play at the exact same spot on the floor (elbow). Neither one passes the ball very much either. D'Antoni is going to have his hands full trying to make those two mesh well.

Monta Ellis shoots 47% from the field and is labeled an inefficient scorer.
 
Is it possible to trade chandler to the Nuggets and resign him in the offseason with the cap that will be created with azzy and billups coming off the books?
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Whoa. You really think Felton, Melo and Amare are better than Bosh, Lebron and Wade?!?

There are going to be a lot of disappointed fans when Melo gets here. He's not as good as some fans believe he is. I watched almost every Nugget game last year (didn't get League Pass and live in CO). Don't get me wrong, he is an amazing offensive talent, that can get hot and drop 50, but he also has, about 1 out of every 5 or 6 games, a terrible game that costs his team a win where he will go 4-20 and 0-3 from 3 point.

Get him here, that's fine. But don't expect us to suddenly be world beaters because Melo is here. Not to mention, him and Amare play at the exact same spot on the floor (elbow). Neither one passes the ball very much either. D'Antoni is going to have his hands full trying to make those two mesh well.

Monta Ellis shoots 47% from the field and is labeled an inefficient scorer.

That's what happens when people start playing/watching the game on paper. A dude averaging 24+ppg, shooting 45% and above, get labelled as inefficient scorers because there are so many convoluted formulas out there to "accurately depict" a player's value to a team.

I mean....45-47% out of 100 is less than half...so you're going to have games of 4-17, 3-19, etc. Even the best FG%s on the season hover around 58-60% which is still a far cry from 100%...obviously. A perimeter player that takes as many shots as Melo or a Monta, that scores as many points as they do, shooting at the percentages they do...is more than a great addition to a team. I don't need to hear about a bunch of formulas that were concocted by a guy writing a book called "Basketball on Paper" to tell me that 25ppg at 45% is somehow...someway...bad.

By saying that Melo sometimes has games of 4-20, and 0-3 from 3-point range, you literally just described every "elite" perimeter player that takes a lot of shots and scores a lot of points. That includes Wade, Durant, and even MJ in his prime. The only way to combat that is to get to the free throw line, and Melo gets to the line 8.4 times a game...that's .4 more than Amar'e.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
All of that being said, I do agree that Ray, Melo, and Amar'e probably aren't better than the Miami Skeet's big 3. But the argument about the percentages and bad games, as if they only pertain to Melo, is kinda weird.
 

Toons

is the Bo$$
Whoa. You really think Felton, Melo and Amare are better than Bosh, Lebron and Wade?!?

There are going to be a lot of disappointed fans when Melo gets here. He's not as good as some fans believe he is. I watched almost every Nugget game last year (didn't get League Pass and live in CO). Don't get me wrong, he is an amazing offensive talent, that can get hot and drop 50, but he also has, about 1 out of every 5 or 6 games, a terrible game that costs his team a win where he will go 4-20 and 0-3 from 3 point.

Get him here, that's fine. But don't expect us to suddenly be world beaters because Melo is here. Not to mention, him and Amare play at the exact same spot on the floor (elbow). Neither one passes the ball very much either. D'Antoni is going to have his hands full trying to make those two mesh well.

Monta Ellis shoots 47% from the field and is labeled an inefficient scorer.

Melo plays everywhere on the floor, what games were you watchin? Melo is one of the most versitile scorers in the nba.
In Dantoni's system, the primary ball handler is the pg. so melo wont have to do much of the ball handling, he can play a more in rythem game. And they said the same thing about spolstra making the heat mesh well. it may take a few games, but thats how it works.
btw, whoever says monte is inefficient is silly
 

LJ4ptplay

Starter
Melo is a great scorer, I'm not saying he isn't. Just saying some people may be expecting a little too much. We're not contenders if we trade all our assets for Melo. Just stating the truth.

Many people will be crying that we didn't win a championship when we trade for Melo. It is still going to take a lot more. And we will have gotten rid of a lot of assets to get those missing pieces when we trade for him.
 

nuckles2k2

Superstar
Melo is a great scorer, I'm not saying he isn't. Just saying some people may be expecting a little too much. We're not contenders if we trade all our assets for Melo. Just stating the truth.

Many people will be crying that we didn't win a championship when we trade for Melo. It is still going to take a lot more. And we will have gotten rid of a lot of assets to get those missing pieces when we trade for him.

I agree to a certain extent. I was talking to someone the other day who thought that we'd be a championship team from just getting Melo, and I explained that was a pipe dream. But...if we pass on Melo, we're a lot further away from being a championship team than we would be with him and Amar'e as 2/3 pieces of our core in place.

I don't know if we can retain Chandler (his annual salary would be going up with a new deal) and then sign Melo this summer, and I know that we can't have Gallo's cap hold on the books if we're to get CP3 or D-Will in 2012. Plus Felton can be viewed as a placeholder for one of those two until he gets a new deal to be our PG of the future, if he were to at any point become more than a serviceable placeholder for right now.

So...If we're going to try to put our core together next year, and in the process lose Chandler and Gallo for a trio of proven players, all-stars, legit top-10 players, in their primes...how much are we actually giving up?

Is there any scenario whatsoever, where Chandler, Gallo, Amar'e, Melo, and 2012 signing, are all on the same team? If not, what are we losing exactly?
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
Whoa. You really think Felton, Melo and Amare are better than Bosh, Lebron and Wade?!?

There are going to be a lot of disappointed fans when Melo gets here. He's not as good as some fans believe he is. I watched almost every Nugget game last year (didn't get League Pass and live in CO). Don't get me wrong, he is an amazing offensive talent, that can get hot and drop 50, but he also has, about 1 out of every 5 or 6 games, a terrible game that costs his team a win where he will go 4-20 and 0-3 from 3 point.

Get him here, that's fine. But don't expect us to suddenly be world beaters because Melo is here. Not to mention, him and Amare play at the exact same spot on the floor (elbow). Neither one passes the ball very much either. D'Antoni is going to have his hands full trying to make those two mesh well.

Monta Ellis shoots 47% from the field and is labeled an inefficient scorer.

Using those same type of "modern" stats Kobe is an inefficient sorer as well. I'm sure Jordan would be considered inefficient as well had they used that type of conditional/fractional stats.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
This goes round and round...let me end it.

What is more important...role players or a star? I say the star comes first and role players second. We get the talent now, secure the core and fill needs over the next 1-3 years. We are not winning without another star...period. Melo and Amare are young so we have time to fill needs via FA and trade.

Role players are a dime a dozen...Melo caliber players are rare. You must secure that asset while it's available.
 

TR1LL10N

Hannibal Lecter
This whole thing about Melo being selfish because he doesn't want to lose $15 million is nonsense. I don't care if you are worth $150 million, $15 mil is not something to take lightly. That said, here are some other reasons for Melo to be weary of waiting to FA that have nothing to do with being selfish:

1. Franchise tags
ESPN.com's Chad Ford has reported that there is a growing sentiment among owners to add "franchise player" tags, similar to those used in the NFL, to the next agreement. Franchise tags are a form of restricted free agency, allowing a team to potentially prevent a player from leaving on his own. They are tailor-made for situations like Anthony's, in which a player is considered too valuable to the franchise to risk losing.

But they are by no means a certainty in the next agreement. Not all owners are in favor of the concept, and if they do decide to negotiate for it they can expect stiff resistance from the players. If franchise tags make it into the next agreement, however, Anthony could find himself unable to leave the Nuggets on his own initiative. One of the strongest potential threats, "Trade me now or I walk this summer," would be nullified.

2. The salary cap
Armchair GMs are eyeballing the Knicks' cap situation, looking to make sure the team will have enough cap room to sign Anthony as a free agent. They also hope to acquire Anthony without losing Wilson Chandler, who will be a restricted free agent this summer. The problem with these projections is that they are meaningless -- they use rules that no longer will be in effect when Anthony and Chandler are free agents.

Nobody knows how the final agreement between the owners and players will look. The labor dispute boils down to player salaries, and the principal mechanism controlling salaries is the salary cap. Perhaps the new cap will be based on a different percentage of gross revenues (from the current 51 percent), or maybe the new formula switches from using gross revenues to net revenues. Whatever the final agreement, we can be pretty confident that the new cap will be more restrictive than the one currently in place.

According to NBA commissioner David Stern, player salaries were over $750 million too high last season, which translates to at least 32 percent. If the salary cap is lowered by that amount, the cap would decrease next season from its current $58 million to about $44 million. The Knicks are already committed to $44.2 million next season (including Ronny Turiaf's player option), and that's before factoring in Chandler or their first-round draft pick. While this may be a worst-case scenario, the cap almost certainly will go down in the new agreement -- the only question is how much. The lower it goes, the less money will be available to offer Anthony.

The bottom line is that we don't know where the cap will end up. Neither does Anthony. He apparently has his heart set on joining the Knicks, and he is aware that while he may be free to join them this summer, they may not have the cap room to make the kind of offer he wants.

3. A hard cap
The NBA utilizes a soft salary cap, which means teams cannot exceed the cap unless they are using one of several salary-cap exceptions. Take away those exceptions, and a hard cap -- one which there is no mechanism to exceed -- remains. The owners' original proposal included a hard cap, and they apparently haven't wavered on that stance. The two sides have yet to get down to serious horse trading, so we don't know yet whether a hard cap will survive into the final agreement.

But any hardening of the cap will have an impact on Anthony's marketability as a free agent; he could find himself an unrestricted free agent, but with no team to meet his price.

If he does manage to sign with the Knicks, his signing could have negative consequences for the team. A true hard cap would eliminate Bird rights -- which allow a team to exceed the cap to sign its own players -- perhaps forcing New York to choose between Anthony and Chandler. It might even lead them to say goodbye to Landry Fields next summer. It almost certainly would make it much more difficult for Knicks management to finish honing the team into a contender, since exceptions like the midlevel would be gone.

A hard cap -- or even a harder cap -- could mean Anthony would be joining a Knicks team that is stuck in mediocrity, with little or no ability to add the players who would make the team a title contender.

4. Sign-and-trade
Under the current system, a team can re-sign its own free agent for the purpose of trading him to a new team. This is how much of the significant free-agent movement currently gets done -- for example, it's how LeBron James and Chris Bosh got to Miami this summer, and it's how Amare Stoudemire got to New York.

In many cases, a sign-and-trade is viewed as a win-win-win for the three parties. The player gets a larger contract, since he's signed using Bird rights. His previous team gets something in return for losing its prized free agent (rather than nothing). And, most importantly, a sign-and-trade provides an opportunity for capped-out teams to acquire free agents they otherwise couldn't afford. The player's new team just needs to send the assets necessary to complete the trade, which is often much easier than signing the player outright.

Sign-and-trade arrangements have facilitated a lot of high-profile free-agent movement, but those days could be coming to an end. Such a deal is one of the mechanisms that leads to inflated salaries. It's like a consumer using a credit line to make purchases he couldn't otherwise afford -- eventually it all adds up to trouble.

Even if the sign-and-trade rule does survive into the next agreement, there's no guarantee it will help Anthony. The sides could find themselves in the same standoff that currently prevails, with the Nuggets uninterested in the package of players being dangled by the Knicks. If there's no way for Anthony to join the Knicks at his preferred salary without the help of Nuggets GM Masai Ujiri, and Ujiri isn't inclined to help facilitate his exit, then Anthony once again finds himself without a clear path to joining the Knicks.

So we come back to a midseason trade being preferable to waiting for free agency, from Anthony's point of view. And if the Nuggets can't stomach the idea of Anthony walking away, this is also what they should push for, since teams typically get better returns in a midseason trade than they get from a sign-and-trade when the player is a free agent. It's conceivable that the Nuggets could get a better deal right now from a team like Houston that would be viewing him as a rental than they would in a sign-and-trade after the season.

5. Maximum salaries
If Anthony signs his extension (whether to remain a Nugget or to join another team in an extend-and-trade transaction), then he locks in his $18.5 million salary for 2011-12, and adds three additional seasons at $20.3 million, $22.1 million and $23.9 million, for a total of $84.8 million over four seasons. These salaries would be set (for the time being), since Anthony would be signing his extension under the purview of the current collective bargaining agreement. (See Section 6 below for a discussion of a potential rollback of player salaries.)

But if Anthony becomes a free agent this summer, his next contract will be under the terms of the new agreement. If the new agreement reduces maximum salaries, reduces raises, limits the number of years, or reduces the salary that can be guaranteed, his contract will be forced to conform to the new rules.

Under the current rules, if Anthony becomes a free agent this summer he can sign (assuming his team has enough cap room, or can work out a sign-and-trade with the Nuggets) for a hair over $18 million in 2011-12, and up to $80.6 million (signing directly) or $82.4 million (sign-and-trade) over the same four years. But the theme here remains the same -- we won't be operating under the same rules this summer.

Maximum salaries are likely to fall under attack as a means of reducing the players' share of the pie. One reason is practical, and strategic -- most players don't earn anywhere near maximum salary, so a proposal that gets everyone back to work without significantly hurting the lower and middle classes is more likely to be approved under the current "one player, one vote" system. If maximum salaries take a significant hit in the next agreement, Anthony could find himself with considerably less earning power -- even if his team of choice ends up with a lot of cap room.

Some suggest that some of Anthony's lost earning power could be recouped with a signing bonus. But the ability to structure contracts in this way is limited, and this also assumes that signing bonuses will survive unscathed in the next agreement. Besides, it's also possible to add signing bonuses to extensions, so we're back to a free-agent contract not providing any advantage over an extension.

Now to be fair, an extended Anthony would still be subject to the new maximum-salary rules in 2012, when his extension takes effect. But the fact remains that there will be more gotchas with a new contract than there will be with an extension of his existing contract.

And speaking of gotchas with extending his existing contract ?

6. Salary rollbacks
If salary rollbacks are implemented, changes made in the new collective bargaining agreement would apply to more than just new contracts. Some changes would also retroactively apply to existing contracts -- those signed under the current agreement. If this happens, no contract is safe. One line of reasoning suggests that since Anthony would lose money either way, he might as well become a free agent so he can at least go where he wants.

The flaw in this line of reasoning is failing to appreciate the risk in each alternative. We can be pretty sure the new agreement will add significant limitations to new contracts. And while owners will be pushing for rollbacks, they have to be considered much less of a certainty.

"It's part of our proposal," NBA deputy commissioner Adam Silver confirmed to CBSSports.com -- a proposal players union chief Billy Hunter previously dismissed as "a nonstarter." So there exists the possibility that salaries won't be rolled back at all, or through negotiation, that they are rolled back a relatively small amount.

The upshot is that Anthony faces a more certain loss of earning power as a free agent than by signing an extension, even when you factor in the possibility of rollbacks to existing contracts. And that's before factoring in other possible limits to raises, years and guarantees in new contracts.

Just about any way you slice it, Anthony is much better off financially extending his current contract than becoming a free agent this summer in search of a new one. He knows that this year isn't like any other year, and he's not the one with all the leverage. The threat to leave as a free agent -- a potent threat in other years -- just doesn't have the same teeth this year.

Anthony is better off taking the extension, whether it's to remain a Nugget or to be traded to another team. He needs to work with Ujiri to achieve the best possible outcome.

Larry Coon is the author of the NBA Salary Cap FAQ. Follow him on Twitter.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=coon_larry&page=CarmeloFA-110216
 

knicksin60

Starter
I'm not trying to get into any debates here, but why does it seem like D'antoni supporters are anti Melo to NY people?
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
I know for certain Melo will never win us a championship without a decent supporting cast. Which is what we're about to give up to get him so he can get his money.

LOL!!! So you wanna hold on to a supporting cast that can be acquired way more easily over a player that comes once every couple years????

You've got it backwards homie.
 

NYKLiFER

Benchwarmer
Fu

JUST DO IT NY! THIS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS:gony:

BRING MELO HOME DAM IT!!!!!!:agreed:

MUCH PROPS TO STEPHEN A SMITH:gony:

http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nba/columns/story?columnist=smith_stephen&id=6125912

LET IT BE HEARD LOUD AND CLEAR

Sorry Stephen Asshole Smit. But I disagree you do nopt give up Felton chandler gallo ar Fields and Curry **** that that would be sooooo stupid Donnie aint stupid hold pat im a die hard and if we make the trade on denvers turn we will just be nuggets east meaning we will make playoffs every year and exit in the 1st round. Hell no no thx
 

KBlack25

Starter
I'm not trying to get into any debates here, but why does it seem like D'antoni supporters are anti Melo to NY people?

B/c D'Antoni supporters (or just anti-firing-MDA-right-this second) I think tend to be more even keeled, and tend to have a wider view of the team and tend to be less reactionary whereas MDA bashers tend to be more reactionary, more about action in the immediate.

Thos of us who talk about not firing D'Antoni see or feel we are at the right spot in the standings based on our talent level now, we want to stay the course as long as MDA has us where we think the talent level should be whereas those looking to fire him want change in the more immediate, they want gratification immediately.
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
but he also has, about 1 out of every 5 or 6 games, a terrible game that costs his team a win where he will go 4-20 and 0-3 from 3 point.

Ok and that's why we'll have TWO superstars to mitigate those times. Melo may have a bad game but Amare won't (and vice versa).
 

LJ4ptplay

Starter
This goes round and round...let me end it.

What is more important...role players or a star? I say the star comes first and role players second. We get the talent now, secure the core and fill needs over the next 1-3 years. We are not winning without another star...period. Melo and Amare are young so we have time to fill needs via FA and trade.

Role players are a dime a dozen...Melo caliber players are rare. You must secure that asset while it's available.

Obviously you need stars to win a championship. You are arguing for one or the other. I can play that too. Is a star worth not having any role players? A team of Felton, STAT, Melo and a bunch of minimum salary scrubs is not winning either.

So is this about getting a championship, or just being a 4th seed instead of a 6th seed?

If arguing that we must get Melo now because of the new CBA, again, I can play that too. Everyone is so concerned with Melo's money in a new CBA, we should also be concerned with the Knick's money too. With the new CBA, there is probably a much greater chance at there not being a MLE vs a franchise tag.

So if we give all our assets for Melo now, how do you propose we get the role players without cap space and without a MLE? What if there is a Hard Cap? We would be stuck as a perennial 2nd round playoff exit.

If we don't get Melo, and use the cap space to ADD to the current roster and sign players like Nene and Deron Williams, are we really much worse?

There is a risk in both moves. You go under the assumption that the rest of the pieces will fall into place, regardless of the new CBA. I go under the assumption that Melo will sign with us in the summer, regardless of the new CBA. Which is a greater risk/loss?



I think we're all on the same page here. This is about getting a championship. Not just getting better. Honestly, what's the difference to a fan if they lose in the 2nd round vs the 1st round?

So what's the best way to get a championship? Melo signs here this summer. Simple. Melo knows this, Donnie knows this, everybody knows this. The only thing standing in the way is Melo's greed. That's it. The $15 mil he potentially will lose with the new CBA, can easily be made up through NY endorsements, etc.

And I certainly will not be shedding any tears for a guy that has made over $100 mil have to settle for another $50 mil instead of $65 mil.

Part of me is getting tired of professional athletes. I'm almost at my breaking point for tolerating these guys. If Melo gets everything he wants (which I fully expect, star athletes always get what they want) and it screws our chances at a building a contender because he couldn't wait and sacrifice for the team, rather then us sacrificing for him, I will be officially done with American sports. I'll get into Japanese baseball I think.
 

Wargames

Starter
B/c D'Antoni supporters (or just anti-firing-MDA-right-this second) I think tend to be more even keeled, and tend to have a wider view of the team and tend to be less reactionary whereas MDA bashers tend to be more reactionary, more about action in the immediate.

Thos of us who talk about not firing D'Antoni see or feel we are at the right spot in the standings based on our talent level now, we want to stay the course as long as MDA has us where we think the talent level should be whereas those looking to fire him want change in the more immediate, they want gratification immediately.

I have to agree with you on this. Right now most of these "Do it now" debates are between the reactionary Knick Fan's and the Non-reactionary knick fans. Lucky for all of us Donnie Walsh seems to be a member of the latter group. This is a negotiation and Denver just made a large first bid. we're gonna make our counter offer and so forth probably until the All star game where they will meet face to face and finalize what they have all agreed upon. Everyone just needs to relax and do not panic. This whole process is almost over and all signs point to us getting Melo. The important thing now is not so much will we get him as to how we'll get him. Does our front office trip over themselves trying to gut the Knicks like the Nets tried to do. Or does the Donnie play this out like the Celtics/Lakers did when they got those pieces needed to win chips.
 

LJ4ptplay

Starter
LOL!!! So you wanna hold on to a supporting cast that can be acquired way more easily over a player that comes once every couple years????

You've got it backwards homie.

No. I want to ADD him to a team and have the role players already in place. Simple. Sign him this summer and compete for a championship next year. Or trade for him and wait another year, or two, to get the role players and compete.
 

nyk_nyk

All Star
Obviously you need stars to win a championship. You are arguing for one or the other. I can play that too. Is a star worth not having any role players? A team of Felton, STAT, Melo and a bunch of minimum salary scrubs is not winning either.

So is this about getting a championship, or just being a 4th seed instead of a 6th seed?

If arguing that we must get Melo now because of the new CBA, again, I can play that too. Everyone is so concerned with Melo's money in a new CBA, we should also be concerned with the Knick's money too. With the new CBA, there is probably a much greater chance at there not being a MLE vs a franchise tag.

So if we give all our assets for Melo now, how do you propose we get the role players without cap space and without a MLE? What if there is a Hard Cap? We would be stuck as a perennial 2nd round playoff exit.

If we don't get Melo, and use the cap space to ADD to the current roster and sign players like Nene and Deron Williams, are we really much worse?

There is a risk in both moves. You go under the assumption that the rest of the pieces will fall into place, regardless of the new CBA. I go under the assumption that Melo will sign with us in the summer, regardless of the new CBA. Which is a greater risk/loss?



I think we're all on the same page here. This is about getting a championship. Not just getting better. Honestly, what's the difference to a fan if they lose in the 2nd round vs the 1st round?

So what's the best way to get a championship? Melo signs here this summer. Simple. Melo knows this, Donnie knows this, everybody knows this. The only thing standing in the way is Melo's greed. That's it. The $15 mil he potentially will lose with the new CBA, can easily be made up through NY endorsements, etc.

And I certainly will not be shedding any tears for a guy that has made over $100 mil have to settle for another $50 mil instead of $65 mil.

Part of me is getting tired of professional athletes. I'm almost at my breaking point for tolerating these guys. If Melo gets everything he wants (which I fully expect, star athletes always get what they want) and it screws our chances at a building a contender because he couldn't wait and sacrifice for the team, rather then us sacrificing for him, I will be officially done with American sports. I'll get into Japanese baseball I think.

Hahaha you a funny dude. The NBA is a billion dollar business and you want Melo to "sacrifice" money? The league doesn't "sacrifice" for the players and they know it so get it while you can. We'll be just fine filling in spots with a core of Stat & Melo. NY will be the hot spot again for role players looking to revive their careers.
 
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